Rebuilding Freehand Stone Collection and Seeking Input

[Eli Chaps]

First some background...

I know how to freehand and have been doing it, with varying degrees of success, for forty or so years. I'm of course always wanting to learn and soak up this stuff like a sponge but I'm just saying that I can get a good edge on a knife. However, the overwhelming majority of my freehand experience has been with "softer" steels and Arkansas stones. All through my youth and into my 20's it was Schrade, Old Timer, Buck, etc. Even when I got into Spyderco it was mostly VG10 and my as I procured better quality kitchen knives it was still fairly soft.

Several years ago I bought a KME with diamonds and I've been using that almost exclusively for the past few years. Well, I want to get back to more freehanding. The KME is an amazing system and worth every penny but I just love the process of freehand sharpening. And now my collection ranges from BD1 to ZDP-189.

I need to build/rebuild my freehand kit and while I think I have an idea what a lot of folks will respond with, I really am excited to see what people think.

So right now I have a good soft/hard Arkansas combo stone. Unfortunately my 8" Arkansas black stone got damaged in a move and all I have now is a four inch.

I have two initial inquiries:

#1: Ceramics vs. Diamonds - Diamonds are obviously very effective and efficient but I do find they leave some pretty hefty scratches. I think they shine at heavy re-profiling or damage repair but I wonder if the ceramics might not be a better, or at least a good alternative, for general sharpening duties. I'm primarily talking the hard steels like S90V, ZDP, etc. Stick to diamonds? If you like ceramics, what type and why?

#2: Arkansas vs. Spyderco UF - Specifically, Arkansas black and/or translucent vs. the Spyderco ultra fine bench stone? I have a translucent for my KME and I'm not sure it actually does a thing to the super hard steels. I sorta kinda think it does but I'm not really sure. That said, I love high hardness polishing. Good sized black/translucent stones aren't cheap and I'm very intrigued by the Spyderco ceramic UF.

Basically, I'm open to any and all inputs and very much value all your opinions. I'd love to see this as a discussion.

[Bloke]

I don’t know that I can be of much help because I free hand sharpen with about the same consistency as lightning strikes. So I use a guided system (Hapstone Pro). I don’t polish edges and don’t sharpen any knife past 1200grit.

I’ve found that I can do everything with SiC and Medium Spyderco rods on the SharpMaker.

I think the trick, if indeed there is one is to keep stones clean, flat and fresh by lapping on loose grit SiC on glass with water and using plenty of Windex as your lubricant. :)

[Eli Chaps]

Thanks Bloke. :)

[razorsharp]

Shapton glass stones.... they're the bees knees

[anagarika]

I’d recommend Diamond for steel with higher Vanadium like S30V or above. It will work also for simple steel, with lighter pressure and higher grit, so it has broader coverage. Example, for S110V, one may start working the bevel with XC, for BD1 one may be doing better starting with C or F.

With time & practice, you’re going to recognize the pressure & grit suitable for the steel. There’s debate on what stones for which steel over BF, worth reading:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/sha ... s.1530918/
As a start
I never use Shapton, but it’s also highly recommended by many of my sharpening mentors (over BF).

[Eli Chaps]

Thank you gentlemen. I just got in some new strops (been using homemade denim and recycled belt stops for many, many years) and I think next up will be course and fine diamonds. Then I'll need to decide on the next purchase.

Those Shapton's do look nice though...

[vivi]

First some background...

I know how to freehand and have been doing it, with varying degrees of success, for forty or so years. I'm of course always wanting to learn and soak up this stuff like a sponge but I'm just saying that I can get a good edge on a knife. However, the overwhelming majority of my freehand experience has been with "softer" steels and Arkansas stones. All through my youth and into my 20's it was Schrade, Old Timer, Buck, etc. Even when I got into Spyderco it was mostly VG10 and my as I procured better quality kitchen knives it was still fairly soft.

Several years ago I bought a KME with diamonds and I've been using that almost exclusively for the past few years. Well, I want to get back to more freehanding. The KME is an amazing system and worth every penny but I just love the process of freehand sharpening. And now my collection ranges from BD1 to ZDP-189.

I need to build/rebuild my freehand kit and while I think I have an idea what a lot of folks will respond with, I really am excited to see what people think.

So right now I have a good soft/hard Arkansas combo stone. Unfortunately my 8" Arkansas black stone got damaged in a move and all I have now is a four inch.

I have two initial inquiries:

#1: Ceramics vs. Diamonds - Diamonds are obviously very effective and efficient but I do find they leave some pretty hefty scratches. I think they shine at heavy re-profiling or damage repair but I wonder if the ceramics might not be a better, or at least a good alternative, for general sharpening duties. I'm primarily talking the hard steels like S90V, ZDP, etc. Stick to diamonds? If you like ceramics, what type and why?

#2: Arkansas vs. Spyderco UF - Specifically, Arkansas black and/or translucent vs. the Spyderco ultra fine bench stone? I have a translucent for my KME and I'm not sure it actually does a thing to the super hard steels. I sorta kinda think it does but I'm not really sure. That said, I love high hardness polishing. Good sized black/translucent stones aren't cheap and I'm very intrigued by the Spyderco ceramic UF.

Basically, I'm open to any and all inputs and very much value all your opinions. I'd love to see this as a discussion.

My sharpening experience pales in comparison to yours, as I've only got ~20 years experience, but here's my take.

#1, Diamonds VS Ceramics. The answer is both. I'll elaborate below.

#2 Arkansas VS Spyderco UF. I can't think of any reason to use traditional stones. Not a single advantage comes to mind. Short term they might be cheaper, but as they wear and warp that will be mitigated.

I like diamonds for shaping and polishing the full bevel on my knives. I like ceramics for the finishing touch, whether I'm using a regular bevel or a microbevel.

Traditional stones have no place in my life. I've tried them in various grits and sizes and manufacturers. I get equal or superior results from the stones I list below that will not wear or warp to a significant degree after 10-20 years of use. I consider sharpening stones that require lubricants, or wear or warp and require flattening to be quaint technology like a phonograph or horse & buggy.

I like to avoid jigs and guided systems, as they take a lot of the fun out of sharpening to me. Plus free-hand sharpening a knife to shaving sharpness is easy, I can teach it to someone in an hour.

If I were starting from scratch I would purchase the following:

1. DMT XX coarse, 11 inch - This would be for initially setting the bevel on new knives, since 99% of factory edges are too thick, or removing chips & general damage.

2. DMT Fine, 11 inch - This would be for polishing the bevel, and for certain knives it'd be the final step. Yes, XX coarse to fine is a big jump, but the fine is coarse enough it still works quickly. Using a step in between is less time efficient than going straight to the fine in my experience. This stone leaves a very nice edge, so it serves dual purposes as opposed to being used solely for polishing bevels. The edge is leaves is polished enough to easily shave, but still has a lot of slicing aggression. Perfect finish for an EDC IMO. Similar to the brown medium sharpmaker stones, but with a crisper apex.

3. Sharpmaker - I mainly like this for quick touch-ups using the fine rod flats, and using both the mediums and fines to maintain serrated edges. I would not purchase one if I solely used plain edged knives, however.

4. Spyderco fine benchstone - I own all three grits, medium, fine, and ultrafine. I like and use all three. But if I had to choose one, it'd be the fine. I only use my ceramic benchstones as finishing stones. The grit I use is the last step for the knife I'm sharpening, whether it's the M, F or UF. No stropping, no moving to the next grit. I go straight from my DMT fine to whichever grit ceramic I intend to finish the edge / microbevel with. I do the majority of my touch-ups on my F and UF spyderco benchstones, rarely using the sharpmaker for PE knives.

That's it. With those purchases I feel I could sharpen anything I need to sharpen. I'd consider a set of diamond rods for the sharpmaker if I used serrated edges more than I do.

[Eli Chaps]

Thank you Vivi for the well thought out advice. Appreciated!

[standy99]

Butcher for over 20years and fish and hunt in NT Australia

Buy a quality steel to go with a quality stone.

I use BearMoo two sided wet stone and use dishwashing detergent instead of windex or water
( soak in hot water and then pressure wash to clean )

SORRY VIVI BUT I DISAGREE
I prefer a stone that wears as the wearing of a stone gives a better profile. The best one I have is my fathers that is 40+ years old and looks like a dogs bone as the centre is nearly worn through. I EVEN TAKE THE SQUARE EDGE LENGTH CORNER OFF EVER SO SLIGHTLY ON A NEW STONE, this helps the natural tailing swipe not being on a square edge.

Tried all the ceramic and diamond stones but give me a middle tier wet stone any day.

Course for 1/3rds of your sharpening
Fine for 2/3rds ie spend double the time on the smooth then you did on the course is a rule of thimb for me.

As mentioned before 7 or 8 times out of 10 a knife just needs a good go on a Butchers steel and not sharpening stone

[awa54]

My two cents:

Natural stones are great for high carbon and some stainless steels, but I Like Vivi's take for sheer utility and practicality.

I have a fairly complete progression of Japanese water stones (not ceramic) that have a wonderful feel and produce ridiculous polished edges on suitable steels, but all that "feel" and "character" are useless with the current crop of high carbide steels...

My preference in diamond plates is for the EZE-LAP models which have the abrasive fused into the plate, rather than adhered on in a layer of plating, they definitely last longer in hard use than the mid level DMT offerings (at least in my experience). I also agree that the Spyderco ceramics are excellent for finishing and I don't see much difference in the final edge between the fine and UF stones.

If you sharpen HC blades often, I'd say that some day you owe it to yourself to get a nice JNat finishing stone (you'll also need at least a 2k and even better a 4 or 5k stone of some sort to get your scratch pattern refined enough to go to the natural stone), they're magical with HC woodworking tools and kitchen knives!

[Eli Chaps]

Thank you standy99 and awa54! Your inputs and thoughts are also much appreciated.

Over the past few weeks, even before posting this thread, I've been giving this a lot more thought and research and more thought. I have knives I've sharpened with diamond, ceramics, and Arkansas stones. So one rainy day I did some "test" cutting of various things from paper to vegetables and realized that I prefer the edge of the Arkansas stones. Diamonds, at least to me, seem to leave a lot of scratches, especially if you have to go down in grit to start. The ceramics are close to the Arkansas and honestly it might just be my personal bias that perceives a difference in them but I still like that smooth edge the Arkansas leave.

Most of my kitchen cutlery is finished on a Hard Arkansas and strop and I love the edge that provides. Plenty refined enough for translucent cutting yet with just enough tooth to still bite. I did the whole mirror polish thing on my chef's knife once, cuz, wow that is super cool! And yeah, it wasn't. Looked amazing and yes it was extremely sharp but it slipped and took focus and that super refined edge didn't last long.

But what about the "super" steels? Well, I had sharpened my M2LW S90V on my KME with diamonds through 1500 and then down to a .5um strop. Sharp for sure but I could still see some faint scratches. So, I put it on the Hard Ark and low and behold the old rock cut the steel pretty handily. Raising a burr was no issue and I started getting that hazy polished edge with those faint scratches starting to fade. Then It went on the Black Arkansas and was easily and cleanly shaving leg hair and the edge looked very nice. Stropped it on CrO2 and couldn't be happier. I have an excellent, refined, working edge. I have no doubt I could continue to refine the edge with the natural stones and additional strops but the point wasn't to see how far I could go, but how well do the Arkansas stones handle the super steel and in this case it is very well.

But, that edge was already pretty good so maybe all I was really doing was honing. What if I had to actually sharpen? I have a ZDP-189 Delica that came from the factory with something that only be described as a facsimile of an edge. It was really bad; uneven, sloppy, and terribly blunt. It was a legitimate case for return and I know Spyderco would've taken good care of me but I decided I wanted to see what I could do with this true super steel. So I put it on the KME and went at it with the diamonds, starting at 150grit. Over the course of several hours and two days, I finally had a mostly, kinda working edge. The spot down at the ricasso was still pretty bad and the edge was by no means razor sharp but it would cut paper. I realized that I probably should've sent it back as it would've been best to let it go back under a belt sander and then give it a go, but I'd done it, mostly. ZDP-189 is no joke! That was such a trying and intimidating experience that I put the knife as-is back in its box and that was that. I was still carrying a Delica then too but not that one. I wasn't happy with the edge for one and for two, I didn't really want to attack it again.

But, this morning I decided why not? i needed to know, can I sharpen super steel on an Arkansas stone? If not, that will tell me a lot about where my collection is going. But if yes, well, that too will steer my purchases. So, I pulled out the Delica and blunted the edge just enough that was tearing paper at any spot on the blade.

And then it was on to the soft Ark. Nineteen minutes later, I could shave arm hair. So I moved on to the hard Ark and fourteen minutes later I was cleanly slicing newspaper. Well, except for about quarter inch from the ricasso and a tiny spot just in the belly. Then I stropped it on CrO2 and all things considered I am quite please with the edge.

My takeaways?

1) No way I'd want to do the kind of damage repair or bevel setting on a steel like ZDP-189 with natural stones. I'm very thankful to have the KME and diamonds for that!

2) You absolutely can sharpen super steels on Arkansas stones. Now, maybe diamonds would've been faster and admittedly this particular sample needs more diamond work to work out the rough spots, but for a knife that has just normal wear and needs to be resharpened? I have full confidence that can be done and be done without much work. To some 30-45min's might be way to long, that's cool, but given what I was working with and the fact I like sharpening, I had no problem with that and am very pleased.

And I like the smell of mineral oil. :) Maybe I'm just nostalgic.

So for now, the KME will handle anything I think requires diamonds (which should be fairly rare) and I'll focus on new Arkansas and ceramic stones.