What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.

Which one would you rather take a shower with?

DLC M4
3
8%
Plain CTS-204(M390)
25
68%
I don't shower
8
22%
Depends mostly on other external factors
1
3%
 
Total votes: 37

vivi
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#21

Post by vivi »

wrdwrght wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:55 pm

DLC does not address this problem. Even if you don’t suffer “chipping”, you’re gonna get dull but quick.
Not necessarily.

If you sharpen your knife, that refreshes the steel at the apex. It also comes down to what is making your knife rust.

Is it continual exposure to salty, humid air? Might get a rusty apex. Is it living inside a sweaty pocket or waistband during the work day? Then only the coated areas are going to see exposure. Everyones case is a little different.

Either way it isn't fair to compare a knife exposed to corrosive conditions for decades before maintenance was issued, to one that will likely be cared for on a weekly basis at worst. You're not going to see significant dulling at the apex in less than 200 hours except for the most extreme cases, where H1 should probably be the choice in the first place.
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Pelagic
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#22

Post by Pelagic »

Horrible loaded question. You can't compare a virtually rustproof steel to DLC M4, which at least will rust at the bevel. And showering with the knife?

... :confused:
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wrdwrght
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#23

Post by wrdwrght »

Vivi wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:42 pm
wrdwrght wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:55 pm

DLC does not address this problem. Even if you don’t suffer “chipping”, you’re gonna get dull but quick.
Not necessarily.

If you sharpen your knife, that refreshes the steel at the apex. It also comes down to what is making your knife rust.

Is it continual exposure to salty, humid air? Might get a rusty apex. Is it living inside a sweaty pocket or waistband during the work day? Then only the coated areas are going to see exposure. Everyones case is a little different.

Either way it isn't fair to compare a knife exposed to corrosive conditions for decades before maintenance was issued, to one that will likely be cared for on a weekly basis at worst. You're not going to see significant dulling at the apex in less than 200 hours except for the most extreme cases, where H1 should probably be the choice in the first place.
All fair points, Vivi.

But I was speaking strictly about rust already formed (you did not include the text I quoted; see above) in order to make the different point that rust is a molecular loss of steel. It can be minor (requiring a touch up to bring back sharpness) or worse (requiring reprofiling to get a new edge).
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#24

Post by TomAiello »

Does anyone have any thoughts on the relative stain resistance of M4 and 4v/v4e?

I have several v4e DLC blades, but no DLC M4, so I'm struggling to form an opinion about the discussion.
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#25

Post by ferider »

TomAiello wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:49 pm
Does anyone have any thoughts on the relative stain resistance of M4 and 4v/v4e?

I have several v4e DLC blades, but no DLC M4, so I'm struggling to form an opinion about the discussion.
According to Larrin's data, they should be very similar (wrt Acetic Corrosion Index), Tom.
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#26

Post by Sumdumguy »

Caribbean...

M4 in the shower is not something I would do. I only use M4 during winter, because any other humid and nasty season would require a daily disassembly. I love M4, but if the task involves water, the Caribbean is the way to go. I don't even know what a PM2 is anymore ;)
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#27

Post by knivesandbooks »

It just depends for me. If it is a traditional, I wouldn't accepted coated (they don't make them anyway).
Fot moderns, it depends on the steel. I would prefer k390 to be coated. My P4 rusts from looking at it. I prefer m4 coated as well.
But wity steels like d2, cru wear, 3v, etc., it doesn't matter. I've not had a hard time with any of them.

In short, I wouldn't be detected from a knife one way on another. If it is supposed to be classy, though, no coating. For a worker, give me coating.
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#28

Post by vivi »

wrdwrght wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:16 pm
Vivi wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:42 pm
wrdwrght wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:55 pm

DLC does not address this problem. Even if you don’t suffer “chipping”, you’re gonna get dull but quick.
Not necessarily.

If you sharpen your knife, that refreshes the steel at the apex. It also comes down to what is making your knife rust.

Is it continual exposure to salty, humid air? Might get a rusty apex. Is it living inside a sweaty pocket or waistband during the work day? Then only the coated areas are going to see exposure. Everyones case is a little different.

Either way it isn't fair to compare a knife exposed to corrosive conditions for decades before maintenance was issued, to one that will likely be cared for on a weekly basis at worst. You're not going to see significant dulling at the apex in less than 200 hours except for the most extreme cases, where H1 should probably be the choice in the first place.
All fair points, Vivi.

But I was speaking strictly about rust already formed (you did not include the text I quoted; see above) in order to make the different point that rust is a molecular loss of steel. It can be minor (requiring a touch up to bring back sharpness) or worse (requiring reprofiling to get a new edge).
Absolutely. Also once rust forms, it's even easier for more rust to form branching off from the original spots. The earpier you can maintain the steel, the better.
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#29

Post by youmakemehole »

wrdwrght wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:16 pm
Vivi wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:42 pm
wrdwrght wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:55 pm

DLC does not address this problem. Even if you don’t suffer “chipping”, you’re gonna get dull but quick.
Not necessarily.

If you sharpen your knife, that refreshes the steel at the apex. It also comes down to what is making your knife rust.

Is it continual exposure to salty, humid air? Might get a rusty apex. Is it living inside a sweaty pocket or waistband during the work day? Then only the coated areas are going to see exposure. Everyones case is a little different.

Either way it isn't fair to compare a knife exposed to corrosive conditions for decades before maintenance was issued, to one that will likely be cared for on a weekly basis at worst. You're not going to see significant dulling at the apex in less than 200 hours except for the most extreme cases, where H1 should probably be the choice in the first place.
All fair points, Vivi.

But I was speaking strictly about rust already formed (you did not include the text I quoted; see above) in order to make the different point that rust is a molecular loss of steel. It can be minor (requiring a touch up to bring back sharpness) or worse (requiring reprofiling to get a new edge).
I think it should be safe to assume that the average forum member here will have at least a small habit of stropping their EDC's every so often, would you agree? Me personally I have a strop loaded with compound always sitting on the edge of my dresser - an area where I often park my EDC/pocket items such as knives, keys, chapstick, etc., so it is quite common for whatever I'm carrying to get some quick leather action either right before I take it out in my pocket or when I'm putting it back from carrying all day. I'd say the edge is by far the cleanest part of any one of my folders compared to other parts of my knives, by a long shot. Would all this still fall in line with the expectations for your previous statement? I haven't really had too much experience regularly taking out carbon steel in wet environments to see what/when corrosion develops on the edge specifically so having your perspective here is great, thank you!

To those that insist on LC200n/whatever... I appreciate your intentions but I'm not trying to figure out what type of knife is best against corrosion... I have a 2 knives in LC200n and I agree, they are great! What I'm trying to do is to match the blades in various steels I already own the various scales I have to create what I will find most optimal for my specific uses/aesthetic preferences. Also, for those whose minds are boggled from wondering what I do in the shower with my PM2s... sometimes speech is not to be taken literally as in this case and so what I have done is created a metaphor... its a metaphor guys!!! A metaphor :o
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wrdwrght
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#30

Post by wrdwrght »

We were talking about DLC vs. stain-resistant steel.

DLC covers the least concerning part of the blade. It does not safeguard the apex.

You had posed the idea of resistance to rust whether provided by DLC or “stainless”, rather than attentive maintenance.

Attentive maintenance makes the choice sort of unimportant, no?
Last edited by wrdwrght on Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#31

Post by ferider »

One more note to the OP. I've had several knives with corrosion in the liners, but the blade being corrosion free. The last one was an s30v Manix, where backspacer and liners were rusted.

My "rain Militaries" (I commute 100 motorcycle km per day) are 204p and/or S110V Ti Militaries, avoiding the G10 Military liners, since at least the lock side of a G10 Military corrodes easier than a stainless blade.

Roland.
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#32

Post by youmakemehole »

wrdwrght wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:00 pm
We were talking about DLC vs. stain-resistant steel.

DLC covers the least concerning part of the blade. It does not safeguard the apex.

You had posed the idea of resistance to rust whether provided by DLC or “stainless”, rather than attentive maintenance.

Attentive maintenance makes the choice sort of unimportant, no?
I dunno, you tell me! My blades will see the strop fairly regularly but only if they are being actively used. Curious about how well the DLC protects the pivot as well. Could it get soaked regularly and still be ok without me having to blow air into it/take it apart to dry? I know the pivot can get scratched sometimes pretty easily from just the blade swinging back and forth over time.I've never had Spyderco's DLC before so honestly dont know what to expect, and I've never really spent too much time using carbon steel in wet environments regardless of DLC or not. Also PM2 liners are all the same right? All made from some sort of stainless steel I assume?
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#33

Post by wrdwrght »

I’m not trying to steer you away from DLC. You need to make your own discoveries.

I happen to have DLC on my ESEE fixed blades (1095 steel). I bought them years ago, before bare steel was an option (which I would now take). I learned quickly to put Ballistol on their edges soon after use to counter the havoc of humidity on the apex. “Stainless”, of course, is more resistant to that havoc, but only by degrees.

I lubricate my pivots with various products (just worked some Burt’s Bees Beeswax Balm into the pivot and spring of my patina’d K390 Urban) and have had no rust issues.

Liners and other hardware are not (yet?) DLC’d. They, like all else, want attentive maintenance.

Consider The Mastiff, a forum member who knows a thing or two about blade steel. He lives in North Carolina, loves M4 but won’t tolerate patina. He keeps them spotless with attentive maintenance.

As an attentive maintainer, I see DLC as gimmicky. But, then, I don’t care for flippers, either, especially on knives with a Spydiehole.
-Marc (pocketing an M4 Sage5 today)

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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#34

Post by vivi »

The DLC Manix XL has DLC'd liners. I believe the mini manix DLC does as well.
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#35

Post by wrdwrght »

Vivi wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:37 pm
The DLC Manix XL has DLC'd liners. I believe the mini manix DLC does as well.
Ah! Thanks, Vivi. Figured it was coming.
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Re: What is more resistant to rust - DLC'ed carbon steel or plain stainless?

#36

Post by youmakemehole »

wrdwrght wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:55 am
I’m not trying to steer you away from DLC. You need to make your own discoveries.

I happen to have DLC on my ESEE fixed blades (1095 steel). I bought them years ago, before bare steel was an option (which I would now take). I learned quickly to put Ballistol on their edges soon after use to counter the havoc of humidity on the apex. “Stainless”, of course, is more resistant to that havoc, but only by degrees.

I lubricate my pivots with various products (just worked some Burt’s Bees Beeswax Balm into the pivot and spring of my patina’d K390 Urban) and have had no rust issues.

Liners and other hardware are not (yet?) DLC’d. They, like all else, want attentive maintenance.

Consider The Mastiff, a forum member who knows a thing or two about blade steel. He lives in North Carolina, loves M4 but won’t tolerate patina. He keeps them spotless with attentive maintenance.

As an attentive maintainer, I see DLC as gimmicky. But, then, I don’t care for flippers, either, especially on knives with a Spydiehole.
I personally do not consider myself a huge proponent of DLC either, hence my inexperience with it. In general my philosophy towards things is that simpler is better. The most beautiful and functional things are often the least extra and complex. For me, DLC provides a unique benefit though of being more discreet especially in low light environments, where reflections from an otherwise naked stainless steel blade could catching unneeded attention. The fact that it provides some protection from corrosion is a nice cherry on top. I really want to slap my DLC M4 on my peel ply CF handle, the handle which no matter what will become an EDC in my collection as opposed to more of a stay-at-home blade. I know I should have no problem with CTS-204 in it, but the black M4 with its matching black hardware and black CF handle would combine to make a really cool all black knife that would be near invisible at night. Not really the type to go for the "stealth" all black aesthetic on any of my things, but for some reason all the blacked out PM2s ive seen just look amazing.

Trying to determine if the DLC could be resilient enough to keep it nice and healthy factoring in potential occasions of intense moisture, perhaps occasional few days of neglect, wear and tear from edc, etc, while I still am being mindful about keeping it dry and stropped for the most part. Perhaps I'll just have to see how it goes and be disciplined about taking apart every once in a while to check up on everything.. I appreciate all the info you've provided, I def feel a bit more informed! :D

edit: Ballistol- is that anything like Tuf-glide/cloth? I have a marine tuf-cloth I use on all my knives when I first get them and the DLC M4 will get the rub down as well. So far I havnet had any rust issues ever with Tuffcloth treated blades but that is also with consistent maintenance as well (mostly in just the form of stropping and wiping it clean). Maybe DLC + the tufcloth could make it fairly close to M390 in terms of corrosion resistance?
"Sometimes I think that we're all little kids trying to act like grown ups, in our parents clothes. ;) "

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