Share your CPM154/S90V laminate experiences here

[youmakemehole]

New poster here, I've recently contracted this disease called 'collecting Spyderco knives', I believe you all have it as well and it has been quite a fierce bug so I figured creating an account on this forum would happen eventually, better sooner than later (maybe). Feel free to kindly let me know if I am being ignorant about rules/etiquette etc as I have not been lurking long here either. Cheers!

Back to the topic at hand, I was hoping to see if any of you have put CPM's 154/S90V laminate steel through any significant use, and/or also any opinions/info you guys might have on the steel. Particularly interested in its characteristics, esp how significant the differences between it and CPM 154 or S90V by themselves are. From what I've read, the high tech laminate could have properties beyond what one would imagine a piece of S90V sandwiched between 2 pieces of CPM154 would have, due to how the two steels are joined during the manufacturing process. It seems this new CPM laminate has been commanding the highest prices of any sprint steel variety, and so I as well as many others most likely are curious on whether or not people think it has the performance to back its price.

For specifics, I am trying to decide between keeping a Manix 2 in 154/S90V with peel ply CF or one in 4v(hollow grind) in marbled CF. Feel free to provide your input regarding this point as well, I'd love to hear opinions. Ideally though it would be nice to have this thread mostly centered around the steel and not the Manix, I will probably post another one on that later.

I'd imagine that the number of extensive experiences with usage/sharpening/performance in general with this steel would probably be very minimal, due to how expensive it tends to run, a knife with this laminate would probably be much more likely kept stored away or at least babied to preserve its value, so I am sure any info on this steel would be very much valued and appreciated! Thanks in advance to you all~

[Nate]

Welcome!

Only have a sec to post but this is good reading:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58604

Ultimately I think your question will come down to whether you prefer 4v in a hollow grind or s90v with a full flat grind, maybe which scales you prefer.

I have the composite blade Manix and it's a user, but I got it for way cheaper than retail on Ebay b/c it's a factory 2nd, presumably due to the lamination line going into the bevel near the tip on one side. Under magnification though I confirmed the edge is still all s90v.

[ferider]

For me it's an impossible choice between your two Manix knives, I have both and feel they very much complement each other: flat vs. hollow, stainless vs. non-SS, edge retention vs. toughness, kitchen use vs. house and yard, etc.

[Kleon]

I would go with the CF 154/S90 variant if you are going to use it in slippery conditions in terms of grip. The Marbled CF is gorgeous but is slippery comprared to that of the peel ply CF laminated knife. I have both so have had both in hand. User -go the laminate bladed route, safe queen the 4V would get my nod.

[TomAiello]

I own both and it'd be hard to choose, but if I was forced to I'd keep the 4v.

How much do you value corrosion resistance?

[youmakemehole]

I do own both of them and have handled them quite a bit as well, but just haven't used them in order to keep them looking nice and new. I am definitely leaning towards the 4v, the carbon is beautiful, and it actually grips rather well, much better than aluminim/ti or smooth G10, its almost just like micarta. The hollow ground blade is way thicker and sturdier than most people have made it out to be - the blade hits around 2mm around halfway through the grind, while the flat grind gets thinner than 2mm anywhere below the spidey hole. The way heavier blade gives the action way more momentum on its own, and coupled with the gorgeous handle and the confidence you get from the 4v scale just provides this super smooth, luxurious tank-like little beast when you handle it right after the peel ply.

The peel ply though is pretty awesome - I've done myself a favor and got a PM2 in peel ply shortly after just because i liked it so much. Something about the pattern they press into the resin that textured G10 just doesn't quite have. Hopefully it stays that way just like G10 does too. So really unless the laminate has some amazing properties to it, like LC200n level corrosion resistance, or extreme ease of sharpening while having S110v levels of edge retention, the peel ply what I'd mostly be attracted to and I've already got a PM2 coming with that same handle. I do need a tougher plain edge knife knife that can handle a little bit of moisture and abuse however, and the PM2 with the 52100 probably wouldnt be ideal.

[ferider]

I do own both of them and have handled them quite a bit as well, but just haven't used them in order to keep them looking nice and new. I am definitely leaning towards the 4v, the carbon is beautiful, and it actually grips rather well, much better than aluminim/ti or smooth G10, its almost just like micarta. The hollow ground blade is way thicker and sturdier than most people have made it out to be - the blade hits around 2mm around halfway through the grind, while the flat grind gets thinner than 2mm anywhere below the spidey hole. The way heavier blade gives the action way more momentum on its own, and coupled with the gorgeous handle and the confidence you get from the 4v scale just provides this super smooth, luxurious tank-like little beast when you handle it right after the peel ply.

The peel ply though is pretty awesome - I've done myself a favor and got a PM2 in peel ply shortly after just because i liked it so much. Something about the pattern they press into the resin that textured G10 just doesn't quite have. Hopefully it stays that way just like G10 does too. So really unless the laminate has some amazing properties to it, like LC200n level corrosion resistance, or extreme ease of sharpening while having S110v levels of edge retention, the peel ply what I'd mostly be attracted to and I've already got a PM2 coming with that same handle. I do need a tougher plain edge knife knife that can handle a little bit of moisture and abuse however, and the PM2 with the 52100 probably wouldnt be ideal.

The laminate is mostly pretty and unique. Adds some toughness probably, but obviously not against chipping. And given that the only other S90V steel lined Manix 2 is made from unobtainium, the only reasonably priced way today to get an s90v Manix is the laminate, if you like that steel.

If you like the Manix 4V smooth CF, and want a plain/flat ground more corrosion resistant and tough Manix, see if you can find the CF Manix 2 in CPM Cru-Wear. That Carbon Fiber is smooth as well.

BTW, you can buy similar peel-ply Manix 2 scales on ebay, see ebay #163480909573. Not cheap, but _very_ similar to the 154/90 stock scales. I have a set here that will go on an M4 Manix 2 next week. You could for instance put those scales on s110v or 20CV Manix knives, which are super corrosion resistant.

And finally, the Manix XL s90v knifecenter exclusive also has peel-ply grippy CF scales. Now, that's a cool knife, just a little bigger :) I believe there is still one for sale by our RamZar on BF, at a fair price.

Roland.

[youmakemehole]

I do own both of them and have handled them quite a bit as well, but just haven't used them in order to keep them looking nice and new. I am definitely leaning towards the 4v, the carbon is beautiful, and it actually grips rather well, much better than aluminim/ti or smooth G10, its almost just like micarta. The hollow ground blade is way thicker and sturdier than most people have made it out to be - the blade hits around 2mm around halfway through the grind, while the flat grind gets thinner than 2mm anywhere below the spidey hole. The way heavier blade gives the action way more momentum on its own, and coupled with the gorgeous handle and the confidence you get from the 4v scale just provides this super smooth, luxurious tank-like little beast when you handle it right after the peel ply.

The peel ply though is pretty awesome - I've done myself a favor and got a PM2 in peel ply shortly after just because i liked it so much. Something about the pattern they press into the resin that textured G10 just doesn't quite have. Hopefully it stays that way just like G10 does too. So really unless the laminate has some amazing properties to it, like LC200n level corrosion resistance, or extreme ease of sharpening while having S110v levels of edge retention, the peel ply what I'd mostly be attracted to and I've already got a PM2 coming with that same handle. I do need a tougher plain edge knife knife that can handle a little bit of moisture and abuse however, and the PM2 with the 52100 probably wouldnt be ideal.

The laminate is mostly pretty and unique. Adds some toughness probably, but obviously not against chipping. And given that the only other S90V steel lined Manix 2 is made from unobtainium, the only reasonably priced way today to get an s90v Manix is the laminate, if you like that steel.

If you like the Manix 4V smooth CF, and want a plain/flat ground more corrosion resistant and tough Manix, see if you can find the CF Manix 2 in CPM Cru-Wear. That Carbon Fiber is smooth as well.

BTW, you can buy similar peel-ply Manix 2 scales on ebay, see ebay #163480909573. Not cheap, but _very_ similar to the 154/90 stock scales. I have a set here that will go on an M4 Manix 2 next week. You could for instance put those scales on s110v or 20CV Manix knives, which are super corrosion resistant.

And finally, the Manix XL s90v knifecenter exclusive also has peel-ply grippy CF scales. Now, that's a cool knife, just a little bigger :) I believe there is still one for sale by our RamZar on BF, at a fair price.

Roland.

Right on, all that info all seems quite relevant. I love both of the CF handles - right now I'm leaning towards getting a peel ply PM2 and then possibly another PM2 with M390 or something similar, and then switching the blade/handles on both those to get that grippy more corrosion resistant plain edge knife I can abuse a bit more and be the one to take on camping trips, hikes, etc. Then probably sell the resulting frankenstein PM2, we'll have to see how much I like the color I end up with along with the 52100 which I've never experienced before.

The 4v manix is just incredibly special, I'm sure anyone who has seen one in person knows what im talking about. The blade is more shiny polished, way beefier ( I believe it was a good .4-.5 oz more when i weighed it), the cf just mindblowingly beautiful, 4v steel is also rather rare in folders in general, and the spidey hole is smooth/chamfered and doesnt have that sharp cut from the tang to grind transition the flat grinds do. The massive 4v blade gives me probably the most confidence as far as toughness goes by a long shot out of any folder I own... I would def want to have this guy if I was stranded in a wilderness! For some reason the action is smoother on both my 4v's than the two 154/s90v's I own as well.

[Brown_Recluse]

The massive 4v blade... ...I would def want to have this guy if I was stranded in a wilderness!

Hope ya got some oil! Lol :D

[cycleguy]

I've never understood why these two steels would be laminated together. Supposed to be some kind of 1+1=3 outcome at an additional cost. Have read the process of laminating but don't understand that either...

Have a Native with 154/90 but think it is too nice to use so it just sits on my desk and gets handled and admired.

CG

[Tucson Tom]

I have been meaning to write something about CPM154 / S90V laminate blades for some time. Namely, what is the point? I don't see how it gains anything in performance over a blade in S90V alone. Plenty of knives, even big knives like Militaries have been made with straight S90V blades and folks just love the Ti/CF S90V military (myself included). In the case of HAP40, it makes sense to clad a non-stainless steel with a stainless one, as is done with SUS410, but here we have two stainless steels, so I am totally with "cycleguy" and have been scratching my head over this for some time.

So, as near as I can tell the CPM154/S90V laminate is done just for the novelty factor. Which is fine, I own the Manix 2 with such a blade.

Am I missing something?

[youmakemehole]

I've never understood why these two steels would be laminated together. Supposed to be some kind of 1+1=3 outcome at an additional cost. Have read the process of laminating but don't understand that either...

Have a Native with 154/90 but think it is too nice to use so it just sits on my desk and gets handled and admired.

CG

Exactly what i'm trying to understand too.. :confused: Apparently its sort of like a display of the new capabilities of Crucible of to what to potentially expect from them in the near future.

]
Hope ya got some oil! Lol :D

Two words... Marine Tuff-cloth!! Carbon steel's best friend

Welcome!

Only have a sec to post but this is good reading:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58604

Thanks, that thread was pretty on point, at least up until the part where people started getting dramatic over knife steel testing. I had no idea people could get so intense over steel hardness on folding knives. :rolleyes:

[Nate]

Am I missing something?

In the very first reply to the OP I linked the thread Ed Schemmp started to share information about this laminate. I guess no one bothered to click on it...

[glutofknives]

I love s90v and the lamination line looks good. We have a manix, native, and para 2 in the configuration. I hope we see a military.

[cycleguy]

Am I missing something?

In the very first reply to the OP I linked the thread Ed Schemmp started to share information about this laminate. I guess no one bothered to click on it...

Nate, I did and thanks for posting it. However, this is all that can be taken away from it: " Theoretically you should get a blade that in polishable and scratch resistant that is tougher than S90V. This material should be considerably less expensive to grind than solid S 90 V."

Now, back to the OP and real world... what is everyone's experience with it(I suppose relative to solid s90v)? Really haven't seen any info on this.

Maybe something of more benefit to a knife maker than a knife user?

From my perspective, given the lack of wide spread use/adoption (relative to solid s90v) and the continued use of solid s90v, the cost benefit factor may/must not be panning out.

However, there is a coolness factor in seeing 154/90 stamped on the blade and having something a little different.

CG

[Nate]

Nate, I did and thanks for posting it. However, this is all that can be taken away from it: " Theoretically you should get a blade that in polishable and scratch resistant that is tougher than S90V. This material should be considerably less expensive to grind than solid S 90 V."

That's it in a nutshell. Just figured it was better from the horse's mouth than trying to paraphrase. The part that cuts is still S90V, and you theorectically have more toughness in the body of the blade, but toughness generally isn't a big deal in folders anyway, and the laminate isn't going to help anything at the apex.

Still it's all sort-of interesting and cool. First US made laminate, some advanced tech in the processing. Theorectially easier for manufacturers to grind and polish, but it appears the very high production cost involved negated any of those benefits in terms of final street price (and then some :p ).

[ferider]

In the very first reply to the OP I linked the thread Ed Schemmp started to share information about this laminate. I guess no one bothered to click on it...

Nate, I did and thanks for posting it. However, this is all that can be taken away from it: " Theoretically you should get a blade that in polishable and scratch resistant that is tougher than S90V. This material should be considerably less expensive to grind than solid S 90 V."
: :
From my perspective, given the lack of wide spread use/adoption (relative to solid s90v) and the continued use of solid s90v, the cost benefit factor may/must not be panning out.

However, there is a coolness factor in seeing 154/90 stamped on the blade and having something a little different.

CG

I read it too, Nate, actually a couple of months back before I bought the knife. Thanks for the reminder. And agree with all your points, CG, it's mostly coolness factor for me.

A couple of additional comments:

1) To add some toughness data, see https://knifesteelnerds.com:



So, CPM-154 is about twice as tough as M390/20CV, and moving from M390 to S90V - I'm guessing - you loose another 30% toughness or so. So, CPM-154 is about 2-3x tougher than S90V, pretty good for stainless (it gets close to Z-wear/CPM Cru-Wear (and 3V) as you see). And yes, folders don't need a fixed blade's toughness, but the steel-lined Manix 2 is very sturdy (which is why I'm a fan).

2) If you want sceletonized steel liners and S90V, there is no Manix available (unless you are willing to pay north of $350, either via bladeswap and two knives, or by paying high for the original CF S90V Manix).

Of course, one could just buy an S110V Manix and be done with it. But it's not as cool :)

Roland.

[cycleguy]

Found this on blade forum going back to Sept 13, 2017:

"The main reason was that Crucible was able to do it. It's not really just a cored laminate, there is a chemical boding of the two steels at the interface. Not quite like splitting the atom, but up there. They were able to make it and we were able to make a blade out of it. High tech stuff!"

sal

Here is the link: www.bladeforums.com/threads/cpm154-over ... e.1520028/

CG

[cycleguy]

Deleted duplicate post

[Tucson Tom]

Am I missing something?

In the very first reply to the OP I linked the thread Ed Schemmp started to share information about this laminate. I guess no one bothered to click on it...

Yes, I did miss this. I started skimming when 4V entered the discussion -- nothing wrong with that, but I was focused on talk about the 90V laminate.

So thanks for pointing me back to that discussion, it was definitely worth reading. My take away is 3-fold:

1) the 154CM/90V laminate offers extra toughness. This was my first guess, but I don't think "whole blade" toughness really matters for a folder, and the edge itself is S90V, so this is mostly academic.

2) the laminate offers ease of grinding for the knifemaker making a FFG blade. This probably doesn't save a nickel for the end user since any cost savings here is cancelled by the expense of the material.

3) the novelty. It is a tour-de-force for Crucible to make such a thing, and it yields a unique knife for the end user who is charmed by a laminated blade.

So for me, it is kind of a non-starter. I would be just as happy (or more so) with S90V, and even more happy with other steels.