Sprint Runs Of Old Models With Old Blade Steel?

[JD Spydo]

OK first off, right off the bat considering the title of the thread I think some of you are going to immediately recommend me for extensive psychiatric counseling and/or treatment regimens :rolleyes: :D But please bear with me for just a few seconds and I'll make my point a little more clear. Because what I'm suggesting is really not as far "OUT THERE" as some of you might think. But I do mean what I'm saying in the title.

For instance here lately we've been talking a lot about many of the super-classic older Spyderco models. Now most of us really loved some of the Sprint Runs of older models with improved materials and newer/better blade steels. But there were some super-classic Spyderco models I feel that were so good in their original set up that frankly I wouldn't change a thing. For instance one model I've been dying for to return in Sprint Run is one of the older ( 90s models) Catcherman models in Full Spyderedge with the original blade steel which was AUS-8>> and I'm here to tell you all that the original AUS-8, full SE Catcherman was a gem just the way it was. Also out of the great old AUS-8 era was the original Micarta handled, full SE Caly Jr. To me it had the perfect set up just the way it was.

OK let's go to the ATS-34 era>> which gave us the very first JD Smith model as well as the VESUVIUS. There are still collectors and users envying and desiring to own those two. Not to mention many other models that were just plain super with what they had to begin with. So in many cases what would be wrong with a Sprint Run of a model you still love as much as when you originally got it? So What About Old Models with the same blade steels and same handle materials that many of us are stilling trying to find on Ebay and other sources? There are so many examples I could go on for an hour. What say the citizens of SPYDERVILLE :cool: ?????

[JD Spydo]

I find this really strange that this thread got zero hits on it in 3 days :confused: Because I can't even tell you how many people I've talked to in the past year that has asked me where they could find a Micarta Caly Jr.>> and they didn't care if it had the older AUS-8 steel either.

Also I've talked to many of you all here on the forum who are literally begging for a new C-36 Military model in full Spyderedge.

Actually I was thinking that if Spyderco had any left over bar stock of any of these older blade steels it would be a great way to use it all up.

[500Nitro]

JD

Sorry, must have missed this thread.

I'm in especially AUS 8 but anything else you think is good.

I can buy Aus-8 Enduras any day of the week so leave that out.

Concentrate on the hard to get stuff.

Catcherman for sure

I'll think of others we have spoken about.

[Jazz]

I still like ATS-34.

[500Nitro]

JD

What's your thoughts on GIN-1 ?

I picked up an early Endura Serrated in it.
(Thin plastic clip so I think it might be even earlier than my early 90's Endura)

It was cheap and gives me another thrash knife
That if I lose it I don't mind.

[Evil D]

I'm just now seeing this thread.

The problem is trying to sell these knives, and at the cost that they would probably demand. They may be made with old or even what some might consider obsolete steels but they may not be less expensive because of it, so then you'll have everyone saying "why would I buy this knife with an obsolete steel for the same price as this Para 2 with X steel?". It seems you need some kind of steel hype to stir up interest or sprint runs become financial risks.

[JD Spydo]

JD

What's your thoughts on GIN-1 ?

I picked up an early Endura Serrated in it.
(Thin plastic clip so I think it might be even earlier than my early 90's Endura)

It was cheap and gives me another thrash knife
That if I lose it I don't mind.

GIN-1 to me has a similar distinction as does H-1>> it's great in Spyderedge but I tried carrying a plain edged GIN-1 blade and I was sharpening on it about every two days or more. But I still think it isn't a bad blade in SE. But you've got to understand in the early days serrated blades were kind of Spyderco's claim to fame. They didn't have nearly as many plain edged blades as they do now.

As far as ATS-34 goes>> that's a very interesting story because the brief ATS-34 era was one that produced many super-classics that collectors are to this day trying to get into their collection. Brother Tvenuto will like hearing this. The original "R" model ( the skeletonized version) was one of the original ATS-34 era Spyders. Also the first run JD Smith, Vesuvius and C-50 Centofante were all from the ATS-34 era. At one time it was Spyderco's supersteel it it's day.

[JD Spydo]

I'm just now seeing this thread.

The problem is trying to sell these knives, and at the cost that they would probably demand. They may be made with old or even what some might consider obsolete steels but they may not be less expensive because of it, so then you'll have everyone saying "why would I buy this knife with an obsolete steel for the same price as this Para 2 with X steel?". It seems you need some kind of steel hype to stir up interest or sprint runs become financial risks.

Well I bet you wouldn't have much trouble selling the original Micarta Caly Jr. or a set of the Stainless Caly Jr models. I can't even tell you how hard it is to find a full Spyderedged Catcherman in AUS-8>> and I know some folks who would also like one of those>> look how long it took Landon to fine one.

However I do see your point and it is a point well made. My main thrust in this is that it might be a way to get some of the older super-classics back in a Sprint Run if they didn't have to invest a fortune in materials. Some of the costs of these newer supersteels I hear are beyond the stratosphere :eek:

Also like I was saying earlier if they had any old bar stock of older/antiquated blade steels laying around this would be a good way to get rid of it and get your money out of it at the same time.

[joeldworkin307]

Spyderco has updated a few steels from the OG Japanese producers for the modern market. Gin-1 is analagous to Cts-bd1 and ats-34 (best steel ever) is RWL-34. I'd like to see old models re-released in their modern production materials. A new Terzuola in RWL-34 (or CPM154) and titanium, a salsa or pro-grip in bd1, let's have fun with it.

[Woodpuppy]

I think this would appeal to longtime users who remember the old models/steels fondly and collectors, but I think it’s a small pool. Several sprints including the catcherman have not sold well, according to Sal. I remember the worker fondly as my first Spyderco, and was excited to find the g10 sprint can still be found. But the excitement faded, there’s a reason I sold my original knife, and I’ve found something I like better.

I suspect the initial excitement over an idea like this would fade in the same way, and the knives would languish in inventory or get blown out at a loss. I and others would surely jump on them at KC disco pricing! But I don’t think it’s a money maker for Spyderco.

But what do I know, I’m just a worker bee not a successful businessman!

[JD Spydo]

Spyderco has updated a few steels from the OG Japanese producers for the modern market. Gin-1 is analagous to Cts-bd1 and ats-34 (best steel ever) is RWL-34. I'd like to see old models re-released in their modern production materials. A new Terzuola in RWL-34 (or CPM154) and titanium, a salsa or pro-grip in bd1, let's have fun with it.

Now let me ask you something>> are you saying that these are the same steels with new names? Or are they somewhat modified to be better than like the original ATS-34 but now have a better, improved alloy but are somewhat similar?

I had heard that RWL-34 was sort of similar to present day D-2? When you say ATS-34 "The Best Steel Ever"? Personally I liked it's successor ATS-55 a lot better myself and I still use a few of my ATS-55 Spyders on many occasions.

But now that you have mentioned this it's sort of starting to make some sense>> because KLOTZLI one of my very favorite knife companys outside of the Great Spyder Factory still uses a lot of ATS-34 in many of their premium models to this very day>> and they seem to sell them well over in Europe from what I'm told. Also there are two dealers here in the USA that has told me that they sell their KLOTZLI units pretty fast. Yeah this is becoming interesting the more I think about it :)

[JD Spydo]

I think this would appeal to longtime users who remember the old models/steels fondly and collectors, but I think it’s a small pool. Several sprints including the catcherman have not sold well, according to Sal. I remember the worker fondly as my first Spyderco, and was excited to find the g10 sprint can still be found. But the excitement faded, there’s a reason I sold my original knife, and I’ve found something I like better.

I suspect the initial excitement over an idea like this would fade in the same way, and the knives would languish in inventory or get blown out at a loss. I and others would surely jump on them at KC disco pricing! But I don’t think it’s a money maker for Spyderco.

But what do I know, I’m just a worker bee not a successful businessman!

WEll I'll just bet you that if Sal would bring back the Catcherman in FULL SPYDEREDGE in AUS-8 or any other older steel for that matter or the WORKER model as you suggested it would probably surprise all of us. Because there are a lot of newbies to the Spyderco community that are now searching for many of these older relics and this would be a way they could get some.

I can't tell you how many guys I've talked to over the years that have asked me where they could get some of the older classics like the MARINER, STainless RESCUE, WORKER, or just about any of the older CALY Juniors for that matter. NO I can assure you that there is a market out there for these older units.

[Evil D]

There are always financial questions to answer, and the biggest is how well is it going to sell. If these older steels are significantly cheaper today and you can produce a micarta Caly Jr for $100 street price then yeah they'd probably sell like hotcakes, but if the production is even close to the same as one of the hyped of steels of today then it just doesn't make sense to not use that hype to drive sales.

I do wonder if instead of the latest and greatest super steel if these models could come back as a value option in 8CR13 or something low cost, but you'd still have to wonder if they'd sell in a steel like that. Personally I'd much rather have a Caly Jr in 8CR13 than (for example) something from the byrd line, but then you also risk watering down the prestige of the model. This is why there will never be a $30k budget Bugatti.

I'm not sure you can get gauge how well a sprint will sell by comparing it to how a hard to find classic sells, even if they are built from the same materials. There are companies that make Shelby Cobras that are technically better than the original in every way possible but they don't fetch near the asking price or interest as the original. People want those models for their vintage and collectability, not for the sum of their parts. Part of the allure of sprints is an older model with an updated steel, so you'd be losing part of that allure by going with the original or "obsolete" steel.

It isn't even about how good those steels are...not one little bit. Spyderco are kind of their own worse enemy this way because they are constantly innovating and bringing out hot new steels, do that's what people expect. Other companies that have stuck with the same steel offering for decades could probably get away with this much easier. CRK could probably do a run of the original Sebenza in the same old S30V even 20 years after it was discontinued because that's the same steel they've been using (besides S35VN obviously).

How many comments have you seen where a new model comes out and doesn't sell because it's "only S30V and I have enough of that steel already"? I've said that myself and recently we've seen some otherwise excellent designs get discontinued because of cost and steel choice. If the Lil Temp 3 were instead offered in M4 or Cruwear or S90/100V it would probably still be around even if it costs more.

Anyway, steel is important for sprints. While I would probably be one of the people who would buy one of these knives in an older steel, I am probably part of the minority. That's especially true if we're talking about SE sprints because at this point I'll take some older models in practically any steel if it makes them a reality.

[500Nitro]

"It isn't even about how good those steels are...not one little bit. Spyderco are kind of their own worse enemy this way because they are constantly innovating and bringing out hot new steels,"

True but I think it's required in a crowded market.
But 95% of the market wouldn't even know the difference and the performance difference, well, a few (H1) might be a bit jump
but am I going to really notice it that much over a 30 year Aus 8 Endura that's never rusted and still cuts ?

Evil D
"They may be made with old or even what some might consider obsolete steels but they may not be less expensive because of it, so then you'll have everyone saying "why would I buy this knife with an obsolete steel for the same price as this Para 2 with X steel?". It seems you need some kind of steel hype to stir up interest or sprint runs become financial risks."

Same goes for anything selling nowadays. It's almost like you have to make something shiny, sexy for it to be considered.

The word "obsolete" is way over used by younger people nowadays. I see it used with iphone discussions all the time but
an iphone 7 is not obsolete, just superceeded. And the Aus-8 (and others), as JD reminds us is a **** good steel.


All in all, I don't think the $$$ are there for what we want or the $$$ are less risky with other sprint options and
at the end of the day, that is what Spyderco has to look at regardless of whether we like Retro, Nostalgia.

[JD Spydo]

David I sort of disagree with your take on Spyderco being their own worst enemy. I really don't think that's the case at all. Because they do have what consumers want in an economical line of knives with the Byrd knives for instance and certain Spyderco models that have been made in China and so forth. Spyderco to me has actually raised the bar for high quality cutlery all the way around with new supersteels which is one item that keeps me a faithful fan of their products. There is an old saying I used to hear my late dad constantly repeat and for the most part it's completely true>>>"You Get What You Pay For" and if you can afford a Rolex Watch over a Timex Watch then more power to you. And that's kind of the way I look at Spyderco moving up the ladder. Because personally I would rather have two high end Spyderco models than a dozen Buck, Case or Ka-Bar knives.

Now concerning the possible resurrection of past old models with their original blade steels to me doesn't represent going backward at all. Actually it would give all the newcomers a chance to see just how good a lot of the older models were like. And like I said earlier it would be a way for Spyderco to use up some old bar stock they may have laying around ( that is if they really do).

But there has been some renewed interests in some of the older steels like 440V (S60V), AUS-8, ATS-34 ect, ect. Now on the other hand it may not be a good idea and maybe only afis would be the ones buying them. But like other threads I just wanted to see how the rest of you thought of the idea.

[cwp]

ATS-34 (and its twin, 154CM) are still perfectly good, pretty well-balanced steels. You can certainly find modern super-steels that are better at some things than they are, but they have a nice combination of edge retention, toughness, sharpenability, and stainlessness. I still regularly carry some vintage knives in both steels and -- while I'm the first to admit I'm neither a hard user nor a scientific tester -- I don't find the difference between ATS-34 and, say, S30V to be anything worth getting excited about.

Benchmade still makes a fair number of knives in 154CM and they seem to sell OK. If Spyderco brought out a new knife, or a sprint run of an old knife, in ATS-34, the choice of steel wouldn't negatively affect my interest level. (To be fair, it wouldn't really affect it positively, either, but the list of steels that would is pretty small.) CPM154 also seems like it would be a nice compromise between the classic and the modern, if the older steels are deemed insufficiently marketable.

[JD Spydo]

Well "cwp" I can't at all disagree with you concerning ATS-34 and it's American twin. I found it to be respectable in PE and especially in SE. Like I said in an earlier post one of my favorite competitors of Spyderco and that being the knife company KLOTZLI still uses ATS-34 in many of their high end folders to this day and they seem to sell a lot of them. Also a few years back when I met and chatted with Laci Szabo at his booth at the Blade Show he was still using ATS-34 in many of his high end blades and he had access to about any steel he wanted.

If KLOTZLI is still using it along with a few other knife companies then you have reason that it is still a good blade steel in spite of all the newer steels out there. Now I personally would rather have my M390 Military over any ATS-34 units but I wouldn't reject any of them for hard users either.

There are many models out of Spyderco's ATS-34 era that I would love to see again in the same blade steel and handle material. That era along with the ATS-55 era were two of my past favorites.

[Woodpuppy]

Just my opinion, but I wouldn’t consider any spydercos “vintage”. Classic I could go with.

[JD Spydo]

Just my opinion, but I wouldn’t consider any spydercos “vintage”. Classic I could go with.

Oh I can see what you're saying and I actually agree for the most part. I think a lot of times people use words because they can't think of any better word to use at the time. Whereas on the other hand when you're talking about Spyders from back in the mid 90s I can understand why the term "vintage" is used to describe Spyderco knives from that particular era.

But I see exactly what you're say too. Because many of Spyderco's mid 90s folders are eons ahead of many of their competition's new releases. I would take a mid 90s Spyder over a newer Buck, Case or Ka-Bar any day of the week. And I used to own and use all of the following and I do still have a lot of respect for those companies. But quality always wins out for me. Vintage or modern day

[Evil D]

For the record it isn't MY opinion that those old steels are obsolete, I just think with all the new models getting discontinued for poor sales because they're "only S30V or VG10 for the price" you'll run into similar issues with this idea. After all these older models were ultimately discontinued for a reason. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here and argue both sides. Personally I'd buy some of those older models in almost any steel but I think I'm in the minority there.