Sharpening with or without microbevel.

[tps3443]

When I first started sharpening, I couldn’t get S110V scary sharp unless I used a microbevel. But, now that I’ve learned to get it super sharp without a micro bevel, I’ve realized it stays sharper for much longer!

Anyone experience this?

A 20DPS micro bevel that is shaving sharp edge retention.

VS.

A 15DPS bevel that is shaving sharp edge retention. No micro bevel.

Or am I just crazy?

[vivi]

I've experienced similar things. I wouldn't say it has to do with the microbevel as much as it does the edge angle.

In general, I get better edge retention from thinner angled edges.

However there is a point where you can go too far and edge retention dramatically falls off due to chipping etc.

Microbevels make touch-ups much faster, but you do sacrifice a tiny bit of performance by using one. For a knife I use frequently, the trade off is worth it.

[The Deacon]

I sharpen freehand, but have always followed the advice of the person who taught me 66 years ago and increased the angle between the blade and the stone "a bit" for the last stroke or two on each side. Don't know if that counts as a microbevel or not, don't really care either.

[Xplorer]

I tend to find the bevel angle itself to be the most important factor, but my results tend to depend on the steel I'm using and the type of material I'm cutting.

Also, I did some very specific sharpness testing on an identical pair of Vanax knives as a part of some Vanax work I was doing with Uddeholm and our forum member Surfingringo. I did the cutting tests with a single bevel on both blades and I repeated the tests with a micro bevel. The micro bevel tests showed an increase in the number of rope cuts (prior to edge rolling) of approximately 25%. It also required 50% fewer strokes to re-sharpen the blades that were micro beveled.

I can't say I've done this type of head to head testing enough to know that this is a rule that applies to all knives, all steels and all situations...but in this test at least the micro bevel was the winner.

Best regards,

Chad

[Bloke]

I tend to find the bevel angle itself to be the most important factor, but my results tend to depend on the steel I'm using and the type of material I'm cutting.

Also, I did some very specific sharpness testing on an identical pair of Vanax knives as a part of some Vanax work I was doing with Uddeholm and our forum member Surfingringo. I did the cutting tests with a single bevel on both blades and I repeated the tests with a micro bevel. The micro bevel tests showed an increase in the number of rope cuts (prior to edge rolling) of approximately 25%. It also required 50% fewer strokes to re-sharpen the blades that were micro beveled.

I can't say I've done this type of head to head testing enough to know that this is a rule that applies to all knives, all steels and all situations...but in this test at least the micro bevel was the winner.

Best regards,

Chad

Interesting observations Chad.

I’ve never done any head to Head testing like that but it stands to reason that a micro bevel would strengthen the edge.

I initially set a primary bevel and very lightly strop a new edge. I think that first stropping has a similar effect to using a micro bevel but that’s the only time I strop now. I maintain the edge with a micro bevel between sharpening. :)

[knivesandbooks]

I often finish with a small microbevel after a full sharpening. Or, like Deacon said, finish with a few strokes at a higher edge angle. After a full sharpening, the micro bevel (or pseudo-micro bevel) for me is just a way to finish off the burr. I touch up the edge via micro bevel though. Touch ups are way easier if you're just doing the micro evel.

[fanglekai]

I sharpen freehand, but have always followed the advice of the person who taught me 66 years ago and increased the angle between the blade and the stone "a bit" for the last stroke or two on each side. Don't know if that counts as a microbevel or not, don't really care either.

That's exactly what a microbevel is.

[me2]

If you sharpen with a microbevel and performance goes down, you've chosen the wrong micro bevel angle. For instance, I want a 15 degree angle for my kitchen knives. I don't sharpen at 15 then add a 20 degree microbevel. I sharpen at 12 degrees then add a microbevel at 15. I typically use the Sharpmaker for applying microbevels, though I'm looking into ways to make it useful for angles lower than 15, as I want to use a 10 degree bevel angle and back bevel at 7.

[Ookami]

As for the original question - if the steel can take it, you can go thinner and/or more acute. If the steel holds an edge well with 15° per side without microbevel, you can try 13° per side with a 15° microbevel.

I use microbevels, because they make de-burring an edge easier and they add considerable stability to the apex. I use them on knives with a very acute bevel, eg. Mora knives (easily 6° per side) or Japanese singe-bevel kitchen knives (easily more acute than Moras; microbevel only used on the bevel side, though, not on the flat). If you just grind down to zero without a microbevel on these knives, you're not going to have a lot of fun using them, despite the carbon steel - the edges will crumble or bend over given half a chance, eg. I have an usuba knife that is so thin (as the name usuba implies) that it has a bit of a sticky edge, i.e. it will sometimes cut into the wood fibres of the cutting board and get stuck for a moment. Without a microbevel the edge would just chip and I'd just have to go back to sharpening every time that happens.

A good microbevel should not degrade performance in any noticable way. It doesn't matter whether you have a flat microbevel from a stone or a convex microbevel from a strop. The most important thing to consider is: keep it microscopic. If it is more than a barely visible hairline, you've over-done it. To achieve a working microbevel, just sharpen to zero and try to reduce the burr or better yet, already remove most of it. Then give it like two strokes each side on a very fine stone and you're done; maybe some light strokes on a strop for good measure, but nothing more.

The microbevel is also easy to maintain - if the knife loses its bite, just try the light strokes on the strop or the 2ish passes on the very fine stone/ceramic rod and you should be back in business. When your microbevel has become wider, let's say around 1mm, you can go back to sharpening the main edge bevel.


Ookami

[Jazz]

I sharpen freehand, but have always followed the advice of the person who taught me 66 years ago and increased the angle between the blade and the stone "a bit" for the last stroke or two on each side. Don't know if that counts as a microbevel or not, don't really care either.

I like how you think. I do this to try and get rid of the burr. I don’t call it anything.

[JD Spydo]

Back in 2002 at one of the earlier BLADE Shows my best friend and I got the privilege of talking to the late/great Bill Moran. He told us that he was convinced that a convex edge was the best overall performing edge for most uses. I can't remember exactly all the finite details because it has been close to 15 years and even I forget a few things from time to time :D But he explained to me and my friend in detail about the advantages of convex edges versus standard, conventional apex type edges you can get off of the Sharpmaker.

I've thought about that a lot over the years and I've considered that coming from the literal GodFather of knives that there is something special about convex edges. And with all these newer/better blade steels that we refer to as "supersteels" I'm wondering if that is especially the case for these newer/better blade steels? And I'm now wondering if stropping with the right diamond compounds couldn't give you that desired result of a convex edge with a strong shoulder?

[The Meat man]

I recently upgraded my Hapstone SiC stones to Venev bonded diamonds, and like the OP it was the first time I could get my Maxamet Native scary sharp without a microbevel. I'm really pleased with the diamond's performance - not only do they cut faster but the scratch pattern seems more consistent.

Last night I sharpened up my S110V Military on the Hapstone, with the same happy results. I sharpened both knives to 400 grit, then very lightly stropped a few strokes with diamond on leather. Makes for a very sharp, very aggressive edge.

[vivi]

A good microbevel should not degrade performance in any noticable way. It doesn't matter whether you have a flat microbevel from a stone or a convex microbevel from a strop. The most important thing to consider is: keep it microscopic. If it is more than a barely visible hairline, you've over-done it. To achieve a working microbevel, just sharpen to zero and try to reduce the burr or better yet, already remove most of it. Then give it like two strokes each side on a very fine stone and you're done; maybe some light strokes on a strop for good measure, but nothing more.

The microbevel is also easy to maintain - if the knife loses its bite, just try the light strokes on the strop or the 2ish passes on the very fine stone/ceramic rod and you should be back in business. When your microbevel has become wider, let's say around 1mm, you can go back to sharpening the main edge bevel.


Ookami

Nailed it.

Micro bevels should be barely visible. They should be about the same size as a small bur.

The beauty of microbevels is two fold.

1. They allow you to run thinner edge geometry than you otherwise could. Say your delica is stable during use with a 15 degree per side edge, but starts rolling around 12 degrees per side. So run it 12 degrees per side, apply a 15 degree microbevel, and now you have a stable edge with better cutting performance than a plain 15 degree edge.

2. As Ookami explained, sharpening them is a breeze. You're grinding a thin strip of metal that's less than 1/10th the width of the full edge bevel, meaning it will take less than 1/10th the amount of time to sharpen. This is my main reason for running a microbevel. My knives can go from dull to hair whittling sharp in under one minute, every time, regardless of steel or blade length.

[Brock O Lee]

^ this

[tps3443]

Lately I’ve been sharpening at exactly 15 Degrees per side “The factory grind, and I progress through 200/400/600 grit diamonds. The edge becomes very very sharp!

Once I need to Resharpen my edge I use leather strops with diamond paste and do about 25 passes each side at a 14 degree angle.

^ this works great! And brings back a razor edge very quickly.

My edge has become mirror polished over time though lol!



2013 x5m 0 60