The SE mentality shift

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Donut
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Donut » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:40 pm

500Nitro wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:03 pm
Donut wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:06 am
Evil D wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:04 pm
What is it that's different? I have a Military I believe from around 2009 and the serrations are very large/deep compared to some other blades but it still gets the job done.
I think the old serrations, the small scallops were deeper. The angles made it easier for small stuff to get stuck in them.

People mention serrations being good for plastic straps and zip ties. I worry some that I could chip the blade on something like that or break of one of the small points.
My old Endura 1 (early 90's Aus-8) has done a fair bit of cutting everything and never even hinted at that (chipping, breaking a point).
I'm looking forward to trying out a new Pacific Salt in H1 and a few others.

With Plastic straps and Zip Ties, even a "not as sharp as it could be" serrations cuts them easily because once you apply
a little tension or force the plastic engages one of the curved edges and they are always sharp and it's cut.
Alright, I'll pull out my ZDP SE Delica and beat on it some!
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Doc Dan » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:51 am

I have several 50/50 knives, but only 1 fully serrated. It is a N5 LW. It is not anywhere near as sharp as it should be. It was quite dull when I got it. I have worked on the edge, but it is still not really sharp. It will not shave hair, but it is a far cry better than when I got it. I have had other makes (no longer) with full serrations and that were quite sharp. They were great for a lot of things and not so great for a lot of things. Serrations will zip through a seat belt or a rope like tissue paper if they are sharp but will bind and drag if they are not. However, with a 50/50 I get the best of both.

Another issue that most serrated blades have is that they are all sharpened on one side only. When I cut things, the knife does not want to go in a straight line, but wanders in the direction of the blade edge slant. Surely it is possible to serrate an edge on both sides, isn't it?
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Vivi » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:06 am

MichaelScott wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:24 pm
A few weeks ago two members got together and send me a Salt DF2, SE Hawkbill. I’d never had H1, SE or a Hawkbill knife. Probably why they chose it. After reading this topic I am now carrying it and a small PE knife. Why? I assumed that a SE blade, especially a hawkbill would not cut as cleanly or precisely as my similarly sized PE blade. So I experimented on an innocent piece of notebook paper.

Image

Case not closed but I plan to use the SE on anything that needs to be cut and see how that goes.
Great photo.

Anyone reading this thread...you shouldn't judge serrated edges until you've used one that's sharp enough to shave off the hairs on your arm without contacting skin. It's a whole new world of slicing efficiency.
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Mr Blonde » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:39 am

Although I enjoy slicing with a nicely sharpened plainedge, I do always keep serrations on hand, even if it's just in my LadyBug. I once 'looked like a fool' in front of my family, when I -mr knife expert- couldn't cut smoothly to some polyrope because my polished pe just couldn't get a good grip on the material. No more, with teeth there's always good grip to dig into the material that needs to get cut.
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Evil D » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:54 am

Doc Dan wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:51 am
I have several 50/50 knives, but only 1 fully serrated. It is a N5 LW. It is not anywhere near as sharp as it should be. It was quite dull when I got it. I have worked on the edge, but it is still not really sharp. It will not shave hair, but it is a far cry better than when I got it. I have had other makes (no longer) with full serrations and that were quite sharp. They were great for a lot of things and not so great for a lot of things. Serrations will zip through a seat belt or a rope like tissue paper if they are sharp but will bind and drag if they are not. However, with a 50/50 I get the best of both.

Another issue that most serrated blades have is that they are all sharpened on one side only. When I cut things, the knife does not want to go in a straight line, but wanders in the direction of the blade edge slant. Surely it is possible to serrate an edge on both sides, isn't it?
I wouldn't say it's impossible, but maybe impractical. If you think about how wide the typical SE bevel is, that makes the blade grind thickness behind the bevel fairly thick. If you take a blade that is a true chisel grind, as in the back of the blade is at true 0 degrees/flat straight up and down, then in order to make a blade with serrations on both sides you would basically mirror that chisel grind and make a common V shaped grind like we see on any PE knife. The problem would be that the resulting thickness behind the bevel would now be twice as thick, almost as if it were a low/thick scandi grind. It wouldn't be too bad inside the large serrations but the humps between them would be very thick and would likely wedge into everything.

Something that could be done is to grind the back of the blade into a saber/scandi grind so that the back of the blade has a grind that matches the angle of the serrations on the front side, but again the resulting thickness would be much more than a chisel grind. It seems to me that FFG tends to counter a little of the "chisel grind walk" that you're talking about since the resulting edge is closer to a V than a true chisel grind, or at least I've experienced less of this than with hollow grinds where I've had the same issue even with PE blades.

Another idea is counter spaced serrations on both sides, I know other companies have done this but I've never tried them so I can't say how well that works. It seems like the blade would want to zig zag depending on where the blade is in the material being cut.
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Doc Dan » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:34 am

Evil D wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:54 am
Doc Dan wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:51 am
I have several 50/50 knives, but only 1 fully serrated. It is a N5 LW. It is not anywhere near as sharp as it should be. It was quite dull when I got it. I have worked on the edge, but it is still not really sharp. It will not shave hair, but it is a far cry better than when I got it. I have had other makes (no longer) with full serrations and that were quite sharp. They were great for a lot of things and not so great for a lot of things. Serrations will zip through a seat belt or a rope like tissue paper if they are sharp but will bind and drag if they are not. However, with a 50/50 I get the best of both.

Another issue that most serrated blades have is that they are all sharpened on one side only. When I cut things, the knife does not want to go in a straight line, but wanders in the direction of the blade edge slant. Surely it is possible to serrate an edge on both sides, isn't it?
I wouldn't say it's impossible, but maybe impractical. If you think about how wide the typical SE bevel is, that makes the blade grind thickness behind the bevel fairly thick. If you take a blade that is a true chisel grind, as in the back of the blade is at true 0 degrees/flat straight up and down, then in order to make a blade with serrations on both sides you would basically mirror that chisel grind and make a common V shaped grind like we see on any PE knife. The problem would be that the resulting thickness behind the bevel would now be twice as thick, almost as if it were a low/thick scandi grind. It wouldn't be too bad inside the large serrations but the humps between them would be very thick and would likely wedge into everything.

Something that could be done is to grind the back of the blade into a saber/scandi grind so that the back of the blade has a grind that matches the angle of the serrations on the front side, but again the resulting thickness would be much more than a chisel grind. It seems to me that FFG tends to counter a little of the "chisel grind walk" that you're talking about since the resulting edge is closer to a V than a true chisel grind, or at least I've experienced less of this than with hollow grinds where I've had the same issue even with PE blades.

Another idea is counter spaced serrations on both sides, I know other companies have done this but I've never tried them so I can't say how well that works. It seems like the blade would want to zig zag depending on where the blade is in the material being cut.
Yes, I was aware of all of this, but I wonder, with all of the new technology we have today, if there is not a solution that can be found.

One thing I do like about serrations is that they continue to cut even when the knife is fairly dull. That, in itself, is pretty good. This is very handy in the kitchen, I might add. My Spyderco utility knife and my Forschner paring knives will do a good job long after they shouldn't.
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby 500Nitro » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:50 am

"One thing I do like about serrations is that they continue to cut even when the knife is fairly dull. That, in itself, is pretty good"

Doc

I would say very good. I love the fact it does that.

Also agree re kitchen knives although yet to buy a Spydie kitchen knife.

Re serrations both sides, I hear what people are saying and partially agree but I would change it. It's a winning formula.
3 x Endura 1 SE, 1 x Endura ? CE and a Black Pacific Salt. Want Aqua Salt, Fish Hunter and a Pacific Salt Yellow.

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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:55 pm

In my experience a chisel grind is superior.

Serrations with a chisel grind need not be changed it just does not make any sense at all.

For example I have a paramilitary2 fully serrated and the non serrated tip is still chisel ground it cuts better than my partly serrated where the blade becomes PE paramilitary 2.

The same is true of my partly serrated militaries. The military shines with partly serrated however as the length of the blade can do both edges justice and in my opinion it is a huge mistake not to manufacture the military this way I would also like to see it fully serrated with todays modern serrations the old fully serrated one sucked.

The older spyder edges were too deep and looked tough but bind up on everything, I have two partly serrated militaries and the later model is heads and tails above the older deep serrations.

The Pacific salt is also chisel ground like this also.

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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby JD Spydo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:58 am

sal wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:21 pm
It's funny, but back in the '80s when we introduced serrated edges and we were pretty much the only company making serrated knives. Most of our sales (80%) were serrated models. Then the competition started to make serrated models, that mostly didn't perform as well and in time, the serrated sales slowed.

I'm certainly biased, but I still think we make the best teeth and have the bet ways to maintain them.

I just received a sample of a warnie serrated salt 2. (Jazzed). What a cutting machine!

sal
Mr Glesser I can certainly understand that many decisions on whether or not you offer a model in SE is pretty much "sales driven". But I still long for the earlier days ( mid 90s to mid 2000 decade) when most of the mainline models were at least available in SE if you wanted one. Take the JD Smith model for instance>> I can see why at least 70 to 80% of the people would want it in PE. But my SE JD Smith model in VG-10 does get some use occasionally and it's also a "cutting machine" :cool:

Also years ago when you could still get hard users like the Catcherman in full SE>> I still own and use one of the older AUS-8, full SE Catcherman models and it's still one of my most used Spyders ever. How about a new full SE Catcherman in LC200N?

There are certain models that really do well in SE. Can't you all just at least offer maybe 10% to 15% of each model to be available in SE? I would bet that low of a percentage of models in SE would be sold in due time.

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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:12 am

Here, here I’ll second that motion. I am still busy paying too much on the secondary market trying to fulfill serrated blades from Spyderco.

Spyderco is missing business.

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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Evil D » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:47 am

I dug out my SE Military a few days ago and I've been playing around with it. You guys were right, the serrations are cut super deep. I suspect it has more to do with how thick the blade grind was before they were cut. Even being FFG it seems the blade grind is not the thinnest behind the edge and then the serrations are quite large/deep so the resulting ridges between them are very thick. I noticed when sharpening it that it takes significantly more effort to keep the blade from bouncing off the Sharpmaker rods, and the very last large serration at the tip is so pronounced that it hooks onto the rod. I haven't had much chance to use it yet (working about 70 hours a week at the moment) but I plan to work the serrations over the brown rods or maybe even on the diamonds a little to see if I can mellow out those ridges.

Another thing this brought to my attention is how good the SE Stretch is, because it's nothing like this and is far thinner and made from thinner blade stock to boot. This model is one that really does need brought back, it's one of the better models I've used in SE.
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Donut » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:13 am

A long time ago I took a couple of pictures of serrations on a few different knives so we could try to tell what was different on the serrations. I don't know if I could find it/them now.

Maybe you're right. We could use a SE Chaparral. :)
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:52 am

If I can make some time I will take some pictures of the older militaries I have in full and partial serrations as well as current ones.

Last night I did look at the older Military with Dinosaur gimping (Which I Like) It is a fully serrated model in 440V I was surprised to see the tip is chisel ground and very pleased by that.

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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Evil D » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:00 am

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:52 am

I was surprised to see the tip is chisel ground and very pleased by that.

Are you saying you have combo edge models that have a V edge (bevel ground on both sides) on the PE section? I've never had a Spyderco combo edge but I assumed they were all chisel ground on the PE portion.
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Strider » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:13 am

I really enjoy the SE delica wharncliffe. How will the salt 2 wharncliffe compare with the H1 and hollow grind?

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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:24 am

Evil D wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:00 am
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:52 am

I was surprised to see the tip is chisel ground and very pleased by that.

Are you saying you have combo edge models that have a V edge (bevel ground on both sides) on the PE section? I've never had a Spyderco combo edge but I assumed they were all chisel ground on the PE portion.
Correct. It is also like this on the combo edge on the 52100 steel PM2. That was disappointing to me.

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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Evil D » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:40 am

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:24 am
Evil D wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:00 am
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:52 am

I was surprised to see the tip is chisel ground and very pleased by that.

Are you saying you have combo edge models that have a V edge (bevel ground on both sides) on the PE section? I've never had a Spyderco combo edge but I assumed they were all chisel ground on the PE portion.
Correct. It is also like this on the combo edge on the 52100 steel PM2. That was disappointing to me.

I guess the serrations are added after the standard blade and bevel are ground in. If you sharpen both sides on the 40 spots you should still be hitting the shoulder of the V bevel on both sides (assuming you're using a Sharpmaker).
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:10 am

Evil D wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:40 am
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:24 am
Evil D wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:00 am
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:52 am

I was surprised to see the tip is chisel ground and very pleased by that.

Are you saying you have combo edge models that have a V edge (bevel ground on both sides) on the PE section? I've never had a Spyderco combo edge but I assumed they were all chisel ground on the PE portion.
Correct. It is also like this on the combo edge on the 52100 steel PM2. That was disappointing to me.

I guess the serrations are added after the standard blade and bevel are ground in. If you sharpen both sides on the 40 spots you should still be hitting the shoulder of the V bevel on both sides (assuming you're using a Sharpmaker).
Not sure how they do it. The serrations are on a portion of the blade that without serrations would be chisel ground. The PE portion would be 40 degrees inclusive.


Yep going to have to supply some pictures.

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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:10 pm

Ok here are the pictures 3 older Militaries the fully serrated is the oldest followed by the DLC and finally the partly serrated Military which has the best cutting serrations of the 3.

Then I have included some Para2's the partly serrated is the 52100 ball bearing steel version, the fully serrated is S30V
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IMG_6627.JPG

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:12 pm

More pics
IMG_6628.JPG


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