The SE mentality shift

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Evil D
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The SE mentality shift

Postby Evil D » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:39 am

There is an interesting change in my knife use and perceptions and thought patterns I thought I'd share.



Cliff Notes: SE is the shih tzu and I'm seriously considering not buying anymore PE knives in the future.



A few years ago some of you might remember a thread I made about carrying nothing but SE for 6 months. Back then I didn't even own a Sharpmaker, and part of my goal with that journey was to force myself to figure out how to get repeatable results in sharpening SE, because I saw potential that I was missing out on due to my inability to keep them as sharp as my PE (and ultimately I believe this applies to nearly everyone and is maybe the biggest reason more people don't use SE).

Over the course of that 6 months I figured out how to use a Dremel to strop SE, but it didn't end with me really loving SE and with the exception of my Dragonfly Salt I continued buying and using only PE knives. It wasn't until I got a Sharpmaker and learned how sharpen SE with it and then bought and started carrying my Autonomy that I really came around to actually preferring SE over PE.

Now when I go to cut something, there is an immediate expectation that I've never experienced before, I expect the edge to bite in and grab the material I'm cutting, I expect it to be very aggressive and I expect whatever I'm cutting to separate in a hurry, and it does. When I go back to carrying PE, it is immediately apparent that this action is different and I really don't like it. I've come to expect this so much so, that I practically have no interest in carrying anything PE anymore and that really has me kind of shocked to be honest. The best way I can describe it is "positive snagging"...because it's definitely a grabby kind of feeling like a snag, but instead of that abrupt snag/stop/rip feeling there's a bit of resistance and then the blade just goes through whatever you're cutting. This is 100% dependent on how sharp the edge is.

The other day I was cutting up some urethane (car bumper cover material) and I had both my Autonomy and my Sliverax with me. Both made the cut successfully, but I noticed a lot of slipping with the Sliverax, almost to the point that I had to stop the cut and restart it because the blade slipped completely out/off of what I was cutting. By comparison, the Autonomy almost behaves more like a push cut because of how the teeth grab the material, and if the blade does end up making more of a slicing motion it gets really aggressive with how it cuts. I was able to make cuts with the Sliverax and prevent the blade from slipping off too much, but I had to deliberately make a push cut motion to keep the edge centered in the material, and that took noticeably more effort and focus.

In a way it's like SE has simplified the amount of thought and focus it takes to cut things, and I find that really interesting because it seems like most peoples' issues with using SE is how they perceive the action vs PE, whether they cut cleanly and or snag, and it seems that people are over thinking all of this when the reality is SE seems to perform best when you stop thinking so much and really just go for it and white knuckle what you're cutting.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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SpyderEdgeForever
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:41 am

Excellent post.

500Nitro
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby 500Nitro » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:48 am

Very true, well said.

I like the 'over thinking' comment.
Seems that way.

I really only buy or use SE knives
With the exception of skinners (which I use Green River wooden handle as my preferred choice).
Last edited by 500Nitro on Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
3 x Endura 1 SE, 1 x Endura ? CE and a Black Pacific Salt. Want Aqua Salt, Fish Hunter and a Pacific Salt Yellow.

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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby ladybug93 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:54 am

i agree. it seems there was a crazy pull away from serrations over the last decade or so. the truth is that both types of edges have their place, which is why i typically carry one of each on me, but most tasks can be done with a good serrated edge. for the record though, most plain edges are pretty much interchangeable (assuming similar steel properties), but no one else comes close to spyderco’s spyderedge.

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knivesandbooks
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby knivesandbooks » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:21 pm

I was skeptical about SE as well. I bought a SE Wharnue Delica just to try it. Now that knife is with me every single day and gets used 3x more than any other knife.
Most used lately: SE Jazz Delica, Police 4, Chaparral Titanium, Slsyz Bowie

JD Spydo
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby JD Spydo » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:22 pm

It wasn't until about 2003-2004 when I was starting to become really convinced that Spyderedged ( Spyderco's patented serrations) blades were as good as they claimed them to be for practical, everyday uses. I first really noticed how well Spyderedges could cut in curved blades ( especially SE Hawkbills) and at that time I was really expanding my line up of serrated user knives. Because back in that time period almost every Spyderco model could be got in SE. Even some of the older units like my beloved Stainless RESCUE model are truly leaps and bounds ahead of what any other knife company currently offers in a serrated blade.

As of this point in time I can't say that I'm prepared to go 100% Spyderedge on a daily basis because with the cutting jobs I encounter I'm still about 60/40 in favor of the plain edge. But when I have a job that requires the Spyderedge I don't even attempt it in plain edge anymore. I still wish we could get Spyderco to at least try a Sprint Run in a recurve like the ULIZE, Spyker or even the smaller Adventura. I just know in my gut that a Recurve in SE would just be a beast.

The Serrated edge is what got me to buy my very first Spyderco blade ever back in the Spring of 95. It was a stainless handled, full SE, GIN-1 MARINER model which I wish I would have kept. But the Stainless RESCUE model I'm currently using as a companion blade is better for all intent and purposes. I'm still wanting to see more serration patterns offered at some point because I still believe we are at the tip of the iceberg so to speak as far as exploring what super high quality serrations can provide.

The Bottom Line: I truly feel like I really need both SE & PE blades to complete my typical day. Actually if I was constricted to just one>> I would probably go with a full Spyderedge if I didn't have a choice and was just restricted to only having one blade to EDC.

garret
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby garret » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:35 pm

I think the same, the cutting capacity in a SE is very high, the only drawback for me is the difficulty for sharpening, that may be the reason why there are no super steels SE

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elena86
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby elena86 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:46 pm

Now you know ;)
Marius

" A mind all logic is like a knife all blade. It makes the hand bleed that uses it " ( Rabindranath Tagore )

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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Bill1170 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:49 pm

garret wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:35 pm
I think the same, the cutting capacity in a SE is very high, the only drawback for me is the difficulty for sharpening, that may be the reason why there are no super steels SE
Here’s the thing. Steels that are “super” in plain edge aren’t necessarily “super” in serrated edge, and vice versa. The two edge types have different cutting dynamics and therefore different material property requirements. H-1, for example is “super” performant in serrated edge, but only “meh” in plain edge. ZDP-189 is “super” performant in plain edge for long lasting refined edges, but I believe Spyderco discontinued it for serrated edges because of durability concerns. Difficulty in sharpening was not a factor in Spyderco’s steel selection for serrations, that I know of.

garret
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby garret » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:30 pm

Bill1170 wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:49 pm
garret wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:35 pm
I think the same, the cutting capacity in a SE is very high, the only drawback for me is the difficulty for sharpening, that may be the reason why there are no super steels SE
Here’s the thing. Steels that are “super” in plain edge aren’t necessarily “super” in serrated edge, and vice versa. The two edge types have different cutting dynamics and therefore different material property requirements. H-1, for example is “super” performant in serrated edge, but only “meh” in plain edge. ZDP-189 is “super” performant in plain edge for long lasting refined edges, but I believe Spyderco discontinued it for serrated edges because of durability concerns. Difficulty in sharpening was not a factor in Spyderco’s steel selection for serrations, that I know of.
I do not understand how a steel like Zdp would not be strong enough to make a jagged edge. regards

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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Bill1170 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:48 pm

Strength is not the issue; ZDP is very strong. The issue is toughness and edge stability. Look up “work of fracture” for a better understanding of how toughness is a different metric than strength.

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Evil D
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Evil D » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:08 pm

garret wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:30 pm

I do not understand how a steel like Zdp would not be strong enough to make a jagged edge. regards
It has already been done and my understanding was that the teeth were highly prone to chipping. It's far easier to repair edge damage on less hard less wear resistant steels. With PE at least you can reprofile the bevel but that's much more difficult to do with SE.

I would still like to try Cruwear.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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elena86
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby elena86 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:28 pm

Evil D wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:08 pm
garret wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:30 pm

I do not understand how a steel like Zdp would not be strong enough to make a jagged edge. regards
It has already been done and my understanding was that the teeth were highly prone to chipping. It's far easier to repair edge damage on less hard less wear resistant steels. With PE at least you can reprofile the bevel but that's much more difficult to do with SE.

I would still like to try Cruwear.

I thought it's a myth but, as much as I like CPM-Cruwear, nothing can beat H1 in spyderedge... my SE H1 Dragonfly2 is a little beast :eek:
Marius

" A mind all logic is like a knife all blade. It makes the hand bleed that uses it " ( Rabindranath Tagore )

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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby wrdwrght » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:00 pm

I’ve flirted with the Spyderedge on all blade shapes but can only give my heart to it on hawkbills, where it is simply devastates what needs to be cut.
Marc

JUST ARRIVED: Rex45 Military sprint; VG10 Calypso sprint; Kapara; PE Caribbean leaf. ON RADAR: PE LC200N Pacific Salt; WaterWay. IN DREAMS: 10V Military; 3V or 4V Shaman; Chief; Slysz Swayback; C27 serrated Jess Horn.

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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Donut » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:57 pm

Evil D wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:08 pm
garret wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:30 pm

I do not understand how a steel like Zdp would not be strong enough to make a jagged edge. regards
It has already been done and my understanding was that the teeth were highly prone to chipping. It's far easier to repair edge damage on less hard less wear resistant steels. With PE at least you can reprofile the bevel but that's much more difficult to do with SE.

I would still like to try Cruwear.
I thought the story was that SE ZDP wore down the production machines too much.

I do have a Delica and Endura in ZDP SE. The Delica doesn't hold on to me too much, even though it was one of the first EDC Spyderco knives I got. I have enough SE knives!


As far as SE goes, I love SE for the utility and I love the idea of SE, but carry PE 99% of the time.

Once in a while I run into SE that I have trouble getting sharp and that frustrates me a lot!
-Brian
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Waiting on a Squeak, Pingo, and Cliptools with a Split Spring!

40mm
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby 40mm » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:21 pm

I've sold off all dedicated pocket knives aside from a SE H1 Dragonfly that I've been carrying everyday for the past few months in my waistband. I have a Vic classic on my keys and an Alox Pioneer that has been living in my vehicle but the Dragonfly has been given all cutting tasks for months now. I love it. Once I got used to cutting with it and sharpening it I really fell in love with it. We just moved and so it has seen a lot of action as far as small cutting tasks but has also broken down a load of cardboard boxes. Zips through it like nothing. I would still REALLY LOVE to see a SE H1 Dragonfly in all black!! Here is a pic of my daily companion...ImageUntitled by Six Pound Cat, on Flickr

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Evil D
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby Evil D » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:31 pm

40mm wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:21 pm
I would still REALLY LOVE to see a SE H1 Dragonfly in all black!!

It's weird that it isn't offered in black since the other Salts are. I (surprisingly) don't mind the yellow, it adds to the people friendly appearance but if they came in all black I'd probably get one.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby 40mm » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:35 pm

I think the black serrated blades are the coolest looking blades hands down. Sal..........Sal.........are you reading this??

ladybug93
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby ladybug93 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:05 pm

Evil D wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:31 pm
40mm wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:21 pm
I would still REALLY LOVE to see a SE H1 Dragonfly in all black!!

It's weird that it isn't offered in black since the other Salts are. I (surprisingly) don't mind the yellow, it adds to the people friendly appearance but if they came in all black I'd probably get one.
100%
40mm wrote: I think the black serrated blades are the coolest looking blades hands down. Sal..........Sal.........are you reading this??
200%

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sal
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Re: The SE mentality shift

Postby sal » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:21 pm

It's funny, but back in the '80s when we introduced serrated edges and we were pretty much the only company making serrated knives. Most of our sales (80%) were serrated models. Then the competition started to make serrated models, that mostly didn't perform as well and in time, the serrated sales slowed.

I'm certainly biased, but I still think we make the best teeth and have the bet ways to maintain them.

I just received a sample of a warnie serrated salt 2. (Jazzed). What a cutting machine!

sal


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