CPM 4V | Edge Performance

[koenigsegg]

Spyderco has been nailing the prices lately it's just a shame these blades are so limited. Would really like them to release more 20CV and 4V

[SF Native]

ferider, Shawn can fill in the gaps, but based upon his prior comments I'd expect him to report that 4V will be tougher but M4 will take a more aggressive edge (at a given finish) and hold it longer.

I’m guessing that’s why we are only now seeing 4v in folders. It’s probably better suited for a fixed blade. In a folder where the lock is the limiting factor, you don’t need as much toughness. M4 is probably better suited in a folder.

[blues]

ferider, Shawn can fill in the gaps, but based upon his prior comments I'd expect him to report that 4V will be tougher but M4 will take a more aggressive edge (at a given finish) and hold it longer.

I’m guessing that’s why we are only now seeing 4v in folders. It’s probably better suited for a fixed blade. In a folder where the lock is the limiting factor, you don’t need as much toughness. M4 is probably better suited in a folder.

And if you want to split the difference, Cru-Wear and REX 45 both take, according to Shawn's testing, a more aggressive edge than 4V, (but less than M4), and still offer excellent toughness. So, options abound. (Plus Cru-Wear offers superior stain resistance if that is a factor in the decision.)

[blueblur]

I love these threads, especially when it’s on a “new” steel. Some great info on what to expect.

[ΖΞΓΛ]

Yes, great info. I totally agree.

[EngDevGr3]

I have one of the para 3 4v models, but I have not used it yet. I am debating going with the upcoming para 3 cruwear exclusive, but I don't think I would see any edge performance difference vs keeping and using the 4v. Other than Shawn's initial testing, I don't think I have seen any other updates on this para 3 4v edge performance.

[Bodog]

I'm still curious to see a head to head test of vanadis 4e vs 4v. I still believe V4E to be better and I'm seeing it advocated for more and more, including knife makers and heat treaters, even with 4V's availability. I wish enough people still wanted the mule team blades and/or i wish more people had actually tested them and given invaluable real world feedback to spyderco. I'd absolutely put V4E against 4V, i believe a lot of others would agree if they tried it, and i believe a lot of people do agree already having tried it.

[ikaretababy]

I also believe that V4E performs better across the board. BUT since I have only owned a few knives in either variation of this steel I can't rule out the possibility that the differences in hardness, geometry etc are responsible for the difference in performance. I might also be subject to some kind of confirmation bias since it was more effort and cost to commission knife makers with regular access to V4E.

[Bodog]

I also believe that V4E performs better across the board. BUT since I have only owned a few knives in either variation of this steel I can't rule out the possibility that the differences in hardness, geometry etc are responsible for the difference in performance. I might also be subject to some kind of confirmation bias since it was more effort and cost to commission knife makers with regular access to V4E.

Agree, that's why I'd love to see a head to head test. But generally people who have tried both like V4E more. Havent heard a peep otherwise. Does that say anything? Don't know, but i know what I've seen and know what i believe. I also know I can be swayed if someone shows real comparisons across a range of tasks that show otherwise. So far i haven't seen anything to contradict what I've seen or contradict the growing consensus based on what they've seen:

4V is good, V4E is better, if that class of steel suits your needs.

Personal opinion:
V4E>Rex M4>4V

Rex 45? Based on what I've seen from guys like deadboxhero maybe better than the 3 aforementioned steels. Don't know and likely won't know until a real comparison is made of rex 45 and V4E and 4V.

At the very least the growing consensus is:
V4E>4V

Disclaimer, i tend to dislike crucible steels more than carpenter or BU based on my personal experiences. I still edc a crucible steel because of the lack of others available in the class of steels i prefer.

[Deadboxhero]

V4E might have a slight performance gain over 4V but at the end of the day it's still 4v and vice versa. There is a premium to V4E due to import cost and BU steel generally being more expensive and less available.

I'm not as concerned about V4E having any advantage over 4v. I'd be more concerned with geometry and with the decisions made for heat treatment protocol times, temps and processes and how much control is used throughout the process and how well each step is executed.

V4E is still closer to 4v then M4. M4 is has different set attributes for better or worse depending on the design, use and preferances.

[Bodog]

V4E might have a slight performance gain over 4V but at the end of the day it's still 4v and vice versa. There is a premium to V4E due to import cost and BU steel generally being more expensive and less available.

I'm not as concerned about V4E having any advantage over 4v. I'd be more concerned with geometry and with the decisions made for heat treatment protocol times, temps and processes and how much control is used throughout the process and how well each step is executed.

V4E is still closer to 4v then M4. M4 is has different set attributes for better or worse depending on the design, use and preferances.

You say that after i acknowledge your tests of m4 vs rex 45. Have you tested V4E? If so, how was it processed and what were the results vs 4V? Or is this hypothetical like so many statements out there? It's no skin off my back either way.

According to statements like this there is no real difference between 4VE and 4V. Maybe so. That means a coupon of both made to the same specs could be sent to peters and heat treated the same way and get extremely similar results. If knifemakers wanting to produce the finest result, maybe this is something they'd undergo and show the results so we can all see just how similar they actually are and get customers based on their findings.

[Cujobob]

Just wanted to chime in to state that knifemakers typically prefer steels that take a heat treat with as little fuss as possible. Most folks don’t do their own tests to study performance of steels when they’re using many different types. That’s more common with less expensive/less wear resistant steels. In use, it’s extremely hard to see a difference between similar steels with similar heat treats. You can perform a controlled cutting test and you’ll see minor differences, but that’s usually extremely different from real world use scenarios.

[ikaretababy]

According to statements like this there is no real difference between 4VE and 4V. Maybe so. That means a coupon of both made to the same specs could be sent to peters and heat treated the same way and get extremely similar results. If knifemakers wanting to produce the finest result, maybe this is something they'd undergo and show the results so we can all see just how similar they actually are and get customers based on their findings.

in all fairness deadboxhero is more or less doing what you are describing.

Again in fairness, I suspect it would difficult to reveal the differences(if any exist) between the two steels without extremely granular testing.

I think we might perceive less difference if a big manufacturer was grinding and HT'ing 4V thinner and harder. As it stands I have either detected or convinced myself of a noticeable if small performance benefit to V4E but I'm not currently aware of any 4V knives that are easily available in 64 or really ground with edge retention and sharpness in mind.

The personal result that I've experienced but cant attribute to choices of geometry or HT is that V4E was more grindable EVEN a point or two higher than it's 4V counterparts that I currently own. I would have expected the opposite to be true. Trying to imagine why this might be the case: Could it be due to a thinner grind just "feeling" easier to grind because less steel is required to be removed?

[Deadboxhero]

V4E might have a slight performance gain over 4V but at the end of the day it's still 4v and vice versa. There is a premium to V4E due to import cost and BU steel generally being more expensive and less available.

I'm not as concerned about V4E having any advantage over 4v. I'd be more concerned with geometry and with the decisions made for heat treatment protocol times, temps and processes and how much control is used throughout the process and how well each step is executed.

V4E is still closer to 4v then M4. M4 is has different set attributes for better or worse depending on the design, use and preferances.

You say that after i acknowledge your tests of m4 vs rex 45. Have you tested V4E? If so, how was it processed and what were the results vs 4V? Or is this hypothetical like so many statements out there? It's no skin off my back either way.

According to statements like this there is no real difference between 4VE and 4V. Maybe so. That means a coupon of both made to the same specs could be sent to peters and heat treated the same way and get extremely similar results. If knifemakers wanting to produce the finest result, maybe this is something they'd undergo and show the results so we can all see just how similar they actually are and get customers based on their findings.

We'll have to wait and see, I've only recently discovered that 4v and v4e can operate at 67-68rc. I only have one piece of V4E at .150" that I'll get to that hardness and grind down to 0.010" bte.

I've used 4v at 64rc and 67rc at 0.015" to 0.005" bte and I've been impressed with the stability.
I haven't used it softer except maybe on the Spyderco.

I have another piece of V4E at .200" but I opted for 62rc for a bigger knife that can absorb more impact energy batoning.

Like I said, as a maker, I feel more concerned with the protocol and geometry more then Pepsi vs Coca-Cola.

I've been very pleased with 4V.

[ZrowsN1s]

...

[The Meat man]

Hey Shawn (or anyone),

Done any more testing with Spyderco's CPM 4V?
I'm interested to hear more input now that it has become apparent that Spyderco's HT is running a good deal harder than first supposed.

Plus we've got a couple more CPM 4V models to use now. (And hopefully with more to come)

[Baron Mind]

I disagree with the notion that 4v is a less than optimal blade steel for folders. Do you need the toughness that 4v offers? Maybe not, but you're not making huge sacrifices in wear resistance to get it. 4v still has above average wear resistance, and the edge stability and high hardness give it very good edge retention. I think it's in the upper echelon of possible folder blade steels.

[Pelagic]

I disagree with the notion that 4v is a less than optimal blade steel for folders. Do you need the toughness that 4v offers? Maybe not, but you're not making huge sacrifices in wear resistance to get it. 4v still has above average wear resistance, and the edge stability and high hardness give it very good edge retention. I think it's in the upper echelon of possible folder blade steels.

Absolutely. Excellent knife steel, folders or otherwise.

[DougC-3]

I'd like to see 4V at high hardness and FFG in the Manix 2 and Manix 2 XL. And of course, I'd like to see it narrower BTE. I didn't buy the Fradon Lock exclusive because of the price ($209.95--high for me) and hollow grind -- But the hollow grind looked pretty thin behind the edge. Anybody know its thickness BTE?

Does anyone remember the hardness of the 4V Mule? I have a couple of them -- I don't use fixies that much but maybe I should change that.

[The Meat man]

I've been carrying the St Nick's Lil Native ever since I bought it last month, and so far I am really liking this steel. It holds its edge well at thinner angles and touches up absurdly easily in my experience. It's actually one of the sharpest knives I own.
I hope to see more folders in CPM 4V.