Can we Spyderco users be assured VG10 will be with us for a good long time?

[Woodpuppy]

Hi Woodpuppy,

Not all knife manufactures are created equal.

sal

Agreed, but first impressions can be hard to shake. Thankfully, your catalog has something for everyone, and I can avoid that steel in favor of others :cool:

[Eli Chaps]

VG-10 is a nice mix of edge-holding, easy sharpenability, and cost, and has a great future as a budget-friendly or beginner-friendly steel. In a budget folder, it's a stellar choice, and I really hope that VG-10 starts to take on the kind of role currently occupied by 8Cr13MoV and AUS-8: a solid choice for budget-focused pieces, but seldom found above $50 or so.

That said, given the excellence of the many mid-price steel options out there (S30V, S35VN, XHP) in terms of wear resistance, I really balk when I see VG-10 above a $70 price point. Particularly in the Japanese G10 knives (e.g. the Parata, Ouroboros, Q Ball) for $150+, that's just one of those things that turns me off. It's fine, it'll work, but once we start hitting those price ranges, I'd rather have something which I'll be sharpening a bit less often, and it starts to feel like a cut corner. I know this is preference, but given the choice of something like S30V, ZDP, HAP-40, or XHP vs. VG-10, the choice is easy (and VG-10 isn't winning).

So, I hope VG-10 sticks around in the budget world, and it'd be a great upgrade for the Tenaciouses and Byrds of the world (pretending of course that Japanese steels made sense in Chinese knives), but I sure wouldn't mind seeing it retired in mid-range to higher-end pieces in favor of some of the excellent compositions that have followed it.

Given your prolific knife reviewing and your personal collection I imagine you rotate knives quite often. I mean I don't know how much you actually carry and use the knives you review but it must some amount of time right? Man, that must make it hard to carry the same knife for several days in a row let alone over a period of time. In your experience Nick, and I know this is subjective based on use, but just in general EDC how much longer do you think you get out of say XHP, S30V, etc.? Ya know, just sort of like in days? You think S30V gives you a week more without sharpening? A month?

I've given some these steels some pretty extensive daily testing, at least in my uses. In fact, it was my goal about a year back to really start studying these steels and knife designs and finding "my" best EDC blade. I have to say, at least in my humble experience, if you gave me the exact same knife in say XHP and VG10, I don't know that I could tell the difference in edge retention in real world use. Heck, I'm not sure I could tell the difference between S30V and VG10. I mean, yeah, if I'm really tuned in and checking it, then yes, but just whipping out my knife and cutting stuff? I wouldn't know if it lasted a day longer or ten days longer.

Now, S90V, yeah I can tell that. But I expect to pay extra for that steel if I want it. I also expect that buying steels like VG10 probably offset some of the cost in manufacturing such a steel, let alone Maxamet.

ZDP189? No thanks. See, for me, I'd pay more for VG10 than I would that steel. I find it way to much of a PITA to sharpen and it's less corrosion resistant to boot. As a steel junkie, heck yes, it's very cool. But to toss it into a discussion about production knives and VG10? Nah.

Steel is one of the last things I consider when approaching a new knife design and I really think it has been over-hyped. They are folding pocket knives for crying out loud.

And we haven't even gotten into the notion of sharpeners putting their own edges on knives.

VG10 is an outstanding steel that should rightly remain right where it is.

[Cycletroll]

Hi Woodpuppy,

Not all knife manufactures are created equal.

sal

Ain't that the truth!

FWIW I really enjoy VG10. It has a place in my collection of user steels and I never feel as though I'm using an "inferior" steel.

[Halfneck]

My 1st Spyderco was GIN-1, then GIN-2, there was an ATS-34 one, then another in ATS-55, then came VG-10.

Sure, there are other steels I like better than VG-10, but the price goes up. And while S30V is considered a better steel than VG-10, I had a bad experience early on that soured my opinion of it. Besides for my day to day needs VG-10 will easily accomplish all I ask of it. If I want to step up in steel I have my D2, CTS-XHP, or M390 knives.

For most uses VG-10 will work just fine while keeping the price point lower. I'm sure something will come along that replaces it though, I've seen it before.

[dj moonbat]

BD1N has replaced VG10 as my favorite all-rounder. But VG10 is still some great steel.

[Crux]

I have heard some complaints by some who have purchased and used Spyderco knives about VG10 being a "sub optimal steel". I have some questions about this, considering there were recent threads on here rightfully showing that VG10 is a great steel.

1 Why do you think some have made such complaints and given bad feedback about VG10? One claim is there are better forms of steel that hold better edges and such. But experienced knife users on here seem to appreciate VG10.

2 What is the closest steel you know of that is like VG10 but has a different chemical makeup?

3 Can we be assured that as far as the foreseeable future goes, Spyderco will continue to make knives with VG10 blades?

That would be another Japanese steel Cos3.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Tell me more about this Cos3 steel, please.

I am glad to know that VG10 will still be in Spyderco's knives. Thank you sal and others.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

BD1N has replaced VG10 as my favorite all-rounder. But VG10 is still some great steel.

If a Spyderco model such as Endura 4 were made with BD1N Stainless, and it was made with the same dimensions, grind, and other features, do you think this stainless would stand up to the same levels of cutting and wear and corrosion at least as well as VG10?

[dj moonbat]

BD1N has replaced VG10 as my favorite all-rounder. But VG10 is still some great steel.

If a Spyderco model such as Endura 4 were made with BD1N Stainless, and it was made with the same dimensions, grind, and other features, do you think this stainless would stand up to the same levels of cutting and wear and corrosion at least as well as VG10?

I'm pretty sure. BD1N can easily be run 2-3 points harder than VG10. I've been using a BD1N chef's knife (Yaxell Dragon from Knives Ship Free) for the past month or two, and its edge retention just kills the VG10 knife that came before it. It's not just like I'm getting a couple extra sharp days out of each honing; it's close to double the time before I notice dulling. You can find videos of some guys cutting rope with the Yaxell/Apogee chef knives that are made of the stuff, and one guy has the BD1N at 63 cutting more than any knife he's tested except one that's ZDP189 at 66 HRC.

I don't actually know whether Spyderco is running their BD1N that hard. But that was the point of putting that nitrogen in there, according to Carpenter, so if they're not, they're wasting its potential.

Of course, BD1N is a US steel, and so not a natural fit for knives made in Seki City. So I doubt VG10 is going anywhere soon.

[JD Spydo]

My 1st Spyderco was GIN-1, then GIN-2, there was an ATS-34 one, then another in ATS-55, then came VG-10.

Sure, there are other steels I like better than VG-10, but the price goes up. And while S30V is considered a better steel than VG-10, I had a bad experience early on that soured my opinion of it. Besides for my day to day needs VG-10 will easily accomplish all I ask of it. If I want to step up in steel I have my D2, CTS-XHP, or M390 knives.

For most uses VG-10 will work just fine while keeping the price point lower. I'm sure something will come along that replaces it though, I've seen it before.

Holy Cow!!! Halfneck!!! If I didn't know better I would say that you must be my older brother or at the very least my very best friend :D What you described is almost how my DNA reads to a genetic researcher :D Almost everything you said is truly a carbon copy of what's in my blade steel database. OH how I want to see some Spyderedged models in XHP :cool:

Now this is also coming from a lone time fan of VG-10 and believe me I've got lots of VG-10 Spyders and most of them are "users" too.

Knowing the respect that Mr. Glesser has had for VG-10 over the years I think it's safe to say that we will probably have VG-10 as a flagship Japanese steel for at least the next 3 to 5 years. It's going to take something really awesome to replace it I can assure everyone.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

My 1st Spyderco was GIN-1, then GIN-2, there was an ATS-34 one, then another in ATS-55, then came VG-10.

Sure, there are other steels I like better than VG-10, but the price goes up. And while S30V is considered a better steel than VG-10, I had a bad experience early on that soured my opinion of it. Besides for my day to day needs VG-10 will easily accomplish all I ask of it. If I want to step up in steel I have my D2, CTS-XHP, or M390 knives.

For most uses VG-10 will work just fine while keeping the price point lower. I'm sure something will come along that replaces it though, I've seen it before.

Holy Cow!!! Halfneck!!! If I didn't know better I would say that you must be my older brother or at the very least my very best friend :D What you described is almost how my DNA reads to a genetic researcher :D Almost everything you said is truly a carbon copy of what's in my blade steel database. OH how I want to see some Spyderedged models in XHP :cool:

Now this is also coming from a lone time fan of VG-10 and believe me I've got lots of VG-10 Spyders and most of them are "users" too.

Knowing the respect that Mr. Glesser has had for VG-10 over the years I think it's safe to say that we will probably have VG-10 as a flagship Japanese steel for at least the next 3 to 5 years. It's going to take something really awesome to replace it I can assure everyone.

This is one of the most encouraging and gladdening posts I have read on the entire forum. Thanks!

[ikaretababy]

VG-10 is a nice mix of edge-holding, easy sharpenability, and cost, and has a great future as a budget-friendly or beginner-friendly steel. In a budget folder, it's a stellar choice, and I really hope that VG-10 starts to take on the kind of role currently occupied by 8Cr13MoV and AUS-8: a solid choice for budget-focused pieces, but seldom found above $50 or so.

That said, given the excellence of the many mid-price steel options out there (S30V, S35VN, XHP) in terms of wear resistance, I really balk when I see VG-10 above a $70 price point. Particularly in the Japanese G10 knives (e.g. the Parata, Ouroboros, Q Ball) for $150+, that's just one of those things that turns me off. It's fine, it'll work, but once we start hitting those price ranges, I'd rather have something which I'll be sharpening a bit less often, and it starts to feel like a cut corner. I know this is preference, but given the choice of something like S30V, ZDP, HAP-40, or XHP vs. VG-10, the choice is easy (and VG-10 isn't winning).

So, I hope VG-10 sticks around in the budget world, and it'd be a great upgrade for the Tenaciouses and Byrds of the world (pretending of course that Japanese steels made sense in Chinese knives), but I sure wouldn't mind seeing it retired in mid-range to higher-end pieces in favor of some of the excellent compositions that have followed it.

Given your prolific knife reviewing and your personal collection I imagine you rotate knives quite often. I mean I don't know how much you actually carry and use the knives you review but it must some amount of time right? Man, that must make it hard to carry the same knife for several days in a row let alone over a period of time. In your experience Nick, and I know this is subjective based on use, but just in general EDC how much longer do you think you get out of say XHP, S30V, etc.? Ya know, just sort of like in days? You think S30V gives you a week more without sharpening? A month?

I've given some these steels some pretty extensive daily testing, at least in my uses. In fact, it was my goal about a year back to really start studying these steels and knife designs and finding "my" best EDC blade. I have to say, at least in my humble experience, if you gave me the exact same knife in say XHP and VG10, I don't know that I could tell the difference in edge retention in real world use. Heck, I'm not sure I could tell the difference between S30V and VG10. I mean, yeah, if I'm really tuned in and checking it, then yes, but just whipping out my knife and cutting stuff? I wouldn't know if it lasted a day longer or ten days longer.

Now, S90V, yeah I can tell that. But I expect to pay extra for that steel if I want it. I also expect that buying steels like VG10 probably offset some of the cost in manufacturing such a steel, let alone Maxamet.

ZDP189? No thanks. See, for me, I'd pay more for VG10 than I would that steel. I find it way to much of a PITA to sharpen and it's less corrosion resistant to boot. As a steel junkie, heck yes, it's very cool. But to toss it into a discussion about production knives and VG10? Nah.

Steel is one of the last things I consider when approaching a new knife design and I really think it has been over-hyped. They are folding pocket knives for crying out loud.

And we haven't even gotten into the notion of sharpeners putting their own edges on knives.

VG10 is an outstanding steel that should rightly remain right where it is.

I know your comments are targeted towards EDC oriented users and I'll grant you that VG-10 opens the mail just fine. Actually... it opens mail better than fine. It's too good! It's OVER-adequate for EDC. I'm paying for edge retention I simply don't need! Thats why I'm petitioning Spyderco to replace it with 440. It makes sense since most people don't need the edge retention of VG-10. ****, I doubt the average user will notice the difference when it's only likely to see intermittent light use. I look forward to the future 440 Endura and Delica and I predict it will be incredibly popular with everyone on this forum and sell out on BladeHQ within 5 minutes.

[ikaretababy]

The Moran drop point is still made in VG-10. That frustrates me. It is the most comfortable, most stable hunting knife I've ever used and theres no exposed stand to freeze the **** out of your palms. A home run and the VG-10 makes it available at a value price point. But VG-10 just can't hang with the various PM tool steels available from Spyderco and others. The reduction in edge retention is absolutely 100% noticeable when the knife requires field sharpening and a PM steel doesn't. I'll continue to appreciate VG-10 as a cutlery steel for sporadic EDC use where the dulling process is likely to take place over weeks or even months. In that situation it might not be dramatically different from a PM steel. I just think the sun has set on it's use in fixed blade knives that are designed to see short periods of sustained, intense use. Basically hunting knives.

If I need to field sharpen a hunting knife I should just be packing a replaceable blade knife. Pliers and a pack of blades ends up being lighter and even fiddling with the stupid notch on those takes less time than sharpening/touching up your edge. It's one situation where VG-10 is just objectively less suitable than the alternatives. Japan loves VG-10 hunting knives though. It's beyond me. Moki even makes a caping knife in vg-10. And its really nice too..beautifully made. I guess the next time I want to cape a squirrel it would be useful....until then I'd welcome some SELECTIVE replacement of VG-10 in models where it mades sense.

[JD Spydo]

My 1st Spyderco was GIN-1, then GIN-2, there was an ATS-34 one, then another in ATS-55, then came VG-10.

Sure, there are other steels I like better than VG-10, but the price goes up. And while S30V is considered a better steel than VG-10, I had a bad experience early on that soured my opinion of it. Besides for my day to day needs VG-10 will easily accomplish all I ask of it. If I want to step up in steel I have my D2, CTS-XHP, or M390 knives.

For most uses VG-10 will work just fine while keeping the price point lower. I'm sure something will come along that replaces it though, I've seen it before.

That's just about the exact same line of succession I went through after I bought my very first Spyderco knife in the Spring of 1995. My very first Spyder was a GIN-1, SE MARINER Model. It wasn't long after that I got a JD Smith made with ATS-34 blade steel. After that I got 4 different models made with ATS-55, >> they were the original C-44 Dyad, The 2 Stainless RESCUE models I still have, A POLICE model made with ATS-55 and a Merlin with that blade steel as well.

And yes I also had a couple of bad experiences with S30V and a very good friend of mine up in Canada told me that him and a couple of buddies were having bad chipping problems with S30V working in really cold weather. Also about that time there were several guys over at Bladeforums who were having a lot of problems with S30V as well. Also I never had much success polishing S30V and it just never took a good polish or shine.

That's really interesting that we both had identical experiences with those particular Spyderco blade steels. Also I think my very first Spyder with VG-10 was my C-54 original CaLYPSO model. That first edition with the Micarta handle and VG-10 steel was a great blade indeed.

[Caustic Dick]

I heard that VG stood for "very good". Also that the "10" stands for being the best as in a 1 - 10 scale. 10's the best. VG-10 will be around forever.

[JD Spydo]

I heard that VG stood for "very good". Also that the "10" stands for being the best as in a 1 - 10 scale. 10's the best. VG-10 will be around forever.

You know that may or may not really be true but I wouldn't argue with you anyway. Because overall I've had better performance and overall dependability from all my VG-10 Spyderco blades that with all the older stuff that I initially grew up with. Spyderco's VG-10 for all intent and purposes is probably better performance-wise than the premium blade steels that other companies offer with their top of the line models.

For instance I remember one weekend on a hunting trip about two years ago I used my PE TEMPERANCE 1 model for 3 days straight on a wide range of cutting jobs and I never once even gave it a "touch-up" or even so much as hit it with one of my F. Dick sharpening steels. No that VG-10 fixed blade ( 2005 vintage I remind you all) worked the entire 3 day hunting weekend without any sharpening or touch up at all.

Again Spyderco's VG-10 is better than a lot of premium blade steels that other knife companies can offer. Also again VG-10 is one of the few blade steels that I've also had great luck with in SE as well as PE. Not many steels I will say that about.

[Wartstein]

Spyderco better keep vg10 and S30v around, unless they want to replace vg10 with hap40 or s30v with xhp. I like to have steels around that are easy to maintain. Bd1 is good too but not as good as vg10 or S30v. I like the edges I can get on them and I like how easy I can bring them back to life. They can get very sharp, stay sharp, and in a short amount of time be renewed. I'm all about that. That's part of the reason why I chose the vtoku2 sprint as well and why I like cru wear. High enough performance, well balanced, and manageable.

May I ask just out of curiosity: You don´t suggest to "replace vg10 with hap40" cause you feel these two are rather similar steels, do you ??!
I use knifes in both these steels (even in the same model, the Endura 4) and they are very different in my experience (concerning edge holding, corrosion resistence, ease of sharpening...)
But I do like both.

[knivesandbooks]

Spyderco better keep vg10 and S30v around, unless they want to replace vg10 with hap40 or s30v with xhp. I like to have steels around that are easy to maintain. Bd1 is good too but not as good as vg10 or S30v. I like the edges I can get on them and I like how easy I can bring them back to life. They can get very sharp, stay sharp, and in a short amount of time be renewed. I'm all about that. That's part of the reason why I chose the vtoku2 sprint as well and why I like cru wear. High enough performance, well balanced, and manageable.

May I ask just out of curiosity: You don´t suggest to "replace vg10 with hap40" cause you feel these two are rather similar steels, do you ??!
I use knifes in both these steels (even in the same model, the Endura 4) and they are very different in my experience (concerning edge holding, corrosion resistence, ease of sharpening...)
But I do like both.

Lol no, I was saying that I'd be okay if Spyderco made that a main line steel, even if that meant getting rid of vg10. It wouldn't happen, so it was more of a joke than anything.

[James Y]

I like VG-10 a lot, and hope it remains in the steel lineup of Spyderco's Seki line. It's definitely NOT a low-performing steel. IME, it's noticeably better than, say, Buck's 420HC, which is about as good as that steel gets, and has been used by working people and outdoorsmen for years and years.

I prefer VG-10 to the super steels that are super-hard and a pain to resharpen. I also prefer it over non-stainless tool steels in my folders. I've read before forums that some people touch up their super steel blades after almost every use, in order to avoid having to do a more difficult resharpening job later on. I really don't see much difference between that and touching up a VG-10 blade every now and then with lots of use, except for possibly the latter involving less 'worry'. I've found VG-10 to be one of the easiest steels to resharpen or touch up, and it holds its edge a decent amount of time. I used to break down boxes all the time with a combo-edge Endura 3 in VG-10, and it rarely needed a touch-up (on either the plain or serrated sections).

Jim

[Wartstein]

Spyderco better keep vg10 and S30v around, unless they want to replace vg10 with hap40 or s30v with xhp. I like to have steels around that are easy to maintain. Bd1 is good too but not as good as vg10 or S30v. I like the edges I can get on them and I like how easy I can bring them back to life. They can get very sharp, stay sharp, and in a short amount of time be renewed. I'm all about that. That's part of the reason why I chose the vtoku2 sprint as well and why I like cru wear. High enough performance, well balanced, and manageable.

May I ask just out of curiosity: You don´t suggest to "replace vg10 with hap40" cause you feel these two are rather similar steels, do you ??!
I use knifes in both these steels (even in the same model, the Endura 4) and they are very different in my experience (concerning edge holding, corrosion resistence, ease of sharpening...)
But I do like both.

Lol no, I was saying that I'd be okay if Spyderco made that a main line steel, even if that meant getting rid of vg10. It wouldn't happen, so it was more of a joke than anything.

Ah, ok!! Should have guessed so from the beginning...