Bram Frank Gunting

[WireEdge Roger]

I remember being so proud of my Gunting and Chinook 1 back in 2001! They were so unique and I bought them at the same time in a brick and mortar store.

I called some video production company and they had a VHS set of tapes featuring Bram and the uses of the Gunting. It was enlightening. Regarding the spoon clip and pocket carry, it wasn’t discreet! I had a wonderful kydex sheath made by Skunkworks. It really allowed for discreet carry and quick deployment. It was a great setup.

[ZrowsN1s]

Thanks for sharing Sal. Good history lesson.

[Halfneck]

I remember being at BLADE show after the Gunting came out. Ran into Bram Frank in one of the aisles and asked him about some of the design features behind his knife. He proceeded to demonstrate with me as the subject.

Owie

[sal]

Sorry 'bout that Halfneck. Actually that became a problem. One writer on which Bram demonstrated at the SHOT show booth threatened to sue us for his owie. We got it sorted, but it was a PITA.

sal

[Liquid Cobra]

Sounds like the falling out was a blessing in disguise for the knife world as it was partially responsible for the creation of the compression lock.

[JD Spydo]

That just gives a bad name to many in the Martial Arts community unfortunately. Because a lot of the MA guys I've met at BLADE and other knife shows over the years were mostly decent, considerate guys. The first time I met Laci Szabo he chatted with me and my friend I was at the BLADE show with and he went out of his way to educate us about all the different designs he had displayed and gave both of us one of his nice catalogs. Unfortunately I had already blown most of my disposable cash at the show already because I would have loved to have bought the UUK model he showed me at the time but I was already out of funds for that show

But he was a really nice stand up guy and acted like he had some brain cells and courtesy too. What would be the point in hurting or angering a potential customer :confused: ?? I'm really disappointed to hear that about him because my good Pal Dr. Hannibal Lecter had actually told me good things about him a few years ago>> I think he met him out east somewhere if I remember right but it's been a long time ago. Dr. Lecter also told me that Bram was very fond of "Simona" aka THE GUNTING GIRL>> I really miss her input to the Forum and wish she would return. Her photos were unbelievable.

[Halfneck]

No worries Sal, he asked and I said go ahead. I was a young soldier at the time so I was fine. It did demonstrate the effectiveness of the design, but I had no real interest in getting one. There were other Spyderco knives far better suited for the job I had at that time.

[markg]

That just gives a bad name to many in the Martial Arts community unfortunately.

Being in the martial arts world for 25 years or so I can relate. Early in my training I added it up. I estimated that I was punched/kicked/thrown, etc about 25,000 times a year. You get used to a certain level of physical discomfort and know you will be OK. For a person who is not doing this, it can be a bit concerning. You don't know what is safe and what is not. You don't know the difference between being hurt (pain) and injury. The average person is taught that if someone touches you, and it leaves a mark of any kind... That is assault. Heck I take pictures of my better bruises. The harder someone hits you, the more they respect you. Whenever you teach a new person, or do a self-defense class for novices, you have to re calibrate and know not everyone is used to this type of physical contact, and if they complain about it you could be facing a legal issue. I had a woman once take a class, and said she would not be returning because "I did not know we would be touching people..."

You have to really be careful.

[JD Spydo]

That just gives a bad name to many in the Martial Arts community unfortunately.

Being in the martial arts world for 25 years or so I can relate. Early in my training I added it up. I estimated that I was punched/kicked/thrown, etc about 25,000 times a year. You get used to a certain level of physical discomfort and know you will be OK. For a person who is not doing this, it can be a bit concerning. You don't know what is safe and what is not. You don't know the difference between being hurt (pain) and injury. The average person is taught that if someone touches you, and it leaves a mark of any kind... That is assault. Heck I take pictures of my better bruises. The harder someone hits you, the more they respect you. Whenever you teach a new person, or do a self-defense class for novices, you have to re calibrate and know not everyone is used to this type of physical contact, and if they complain about it you could be facing a legal issue. I had a woman once take a class, and said she would not be returning because "I did not know we would be touching people..."

You have to really be careful.

That's a really interesting perspective you've shared with us "markg" :) and now I have a completely different take on it. However it is a completely different ball game testing Martial Arts maneuvers on an "afi" like yourself ( and I assume you must be) versus testing them on some arm chair quarterback who hasn't even been in a good fist fight since he was 8 years old. Personally for myself if I knew ahead of time that he was just trying to teach me some valuable SD or life saving tip it wouldn't bother me in the least. But most of us here even on this Forum aren't like the average schmuck who if they got slapped in the face would want to call the Police ASAP :rolleyes: >> and I got a feeling that must have been what Sal was referring to it in the one post.

Because let's face it most average american guys in this day and age are wimps for the most part and you wouldn't want to demonstrate anything in MA on them IMO. But maybe because the guy was at the BLADE show he might have thought he was in our mindset. Which goes to show you that you can't assume anything anymore unfortunately. I could be wrong but that's what it looks like to me.

[markg]

That just gives a bad name to many in the Martial Arts community unfortunately.

Being in the martial arts world for 25 years or so I can relate. Early in my training I added it up. I estimated that I was punched/kicked/thrown, etc about 25,000 times a year. You get used to a certain level of physical discomfort and know you will be OK. For a person who is not doing this, it can be a bit concerning. You don't know what is safe and what is not. You don't know the difference between being hurt (pain) and injury. The average person is taught that if someone touches you, and it leaves a mark of any kind... That is assault. Heck I take pictures of my better bruises. The harder someone hits you, the more they respect you. Whenever you teach a new person, or do a self-defense class for novices, you have to re calibrate and know not everyone is used to this type of physical contact, and if they complain about it you could be facing a legal issue. I had a woman once take a class, and said she would not be returning because "I did not know we would be touching people..."

You have to really be careful.

That's a really interesting perspective you've shared with us "markg" :) and now I have a completely different take on it. However it is a completely different ball game testing Martial Arts maneuvers on an "afi" like yourself ( and I assume you must be) versus testing them on some arm chair quarterback who hasn't even been in a good fist fight since he was 8 years old. Personally for myself if I knew ahead of time that he was just trying to teach me some valuable SD or life saving tip it wouldn't bother me in the least. But most of us here even on this Forum aren't like the average schmuck who if they got slapped in the face would want to call the Police ASAP :rolleyes: >> and I got a feeling that must have been what Sal was referring to it in the one post.

Because let's face it most average american guys in this day and age are wimps for the most part and you wouldn't want to demonstrate anything in MA on them IMO. But maybe because the guy was at the BLADE show he might have thought he was in our mindset. Which goes to show you that you can't assume anything anymore unfortunately. I could be wrong but that's what it looks like to me.

To be honest I would be a bit unnerved to have a person (I believe Sal said SHOT Show) doing this to me, whom I did not know and kinda knew what to expect. Really not the place to do something like that. At least have the courtesy to get a liability release signed first!!! :D

[SolidState]

This thread is bearing a ton of fruit. Thanks for the input Sal! I did not know the chronology on the Khalsa vs. Gunting. All I can say is :eek:

[JD Spydo]

This thread is bearing a ton of fruit. Thanks for the input Sal! I did not know the chronology on the Khalsa vs. Gunting. All I can say is :eek:

During the tenure of the GUNTING model I don't remember many other models that had the true cult following like the GUNTING did. It's really interesting that the GUNTING and the Khalsa models had so much in common. I'm ashamed to say that even when I owned both of those models I never even looked at them to compare them like that. It would be interesting to pick the brain of Jot Singh Khalsa to see what inspired his design.

[ThePeacent]

I believe it was Mike Sastre that I got my GUNTING holster from now that I think about it>> because on that day I got a neck sheath for my Dodo and that GUNTING holster too. Haven't seen Mike on the Forum in quite a while and I do hope he's all right and doing well.

Mike is well and posting and to add my $0.02, he is IMO the master of modern polymer sheaths in the knife world :cool:

Love his work!!!

[Halfneck]

Having owned an original Jot Singh Khalsa I can recall reading about using the hump to kinetically open it. Can't recall where, possibly the old Fighting Knives magazine. When the Gunting came out I already understood that aspect of it. The use of the closed knife as an impact weapon or compliance tool was new. After seeing it's use I understood how it worked, I just didn't think it was good in legal theory.

"The accused pulled a knife on my client."
"Is that true sir?"
"Well yes your honor, but I was using it as a nonlethal complia..."
"Sir just answer yes or no, Did you use a knife on the defendant."

[Greg Walker]

Wow...memory lane here.

The only REKAT I own is pristine SIFU in green scales and black blade, D2 steel. IMHO, the SIFU is Bob's signature REKAT knife.

At one time I owned a Gunting and I loved the design, the concept behind it, and the craftsmanship Spyderco gave it. That said, although you can certainly do a great many compliance or otherwise techniques with it - IF you have the training and skill such as Bram does - without said training/skill it is just one of now many such "compliance tools" on the market, used or otherwise.

Riddle of Steel - I enjoyed some great training and adventures at Jim's Riddle on the Snake - and it made for great stories in Fighting Knives magazine which Jim always appreciated.

Finally, several years ago while in San Francisco on business I bought an Emerson Wave (Spyderco manufactured) in the blue motif. Found it at little cutlery store on Fisherman's Wharf one afternoon. It remains a favorite for carry due to design, weight, pleasing (inoffensive) color, and it is the SHARPEST Spyderco knife I can recall owning to date. Sal, I don't know how you guys do it but this particular Emerson is truly American BadAss when it comes to slicing, dicing, and sureness in the hand while doing so.

[JD Spydo]

I've seen a couple of videos over the years with Bram Frank demonstrating the intended, varied uses of the GUNTING model. It was truly an interesting concept and none like I had ever seen before or since. It's interesting that most of the maneuvers he showed really didn't have that much to do with the actual "Knife Aspect" of the GUNTING but rather how you could implement using it for all kinds of Self Defense moves and tactics that if applied correctly would render your adversary completely helpless without actually causing anyone any permanent injury.

From a scientific standpoint it's truly a work of genius. It's truly a shame that Spyderco can't make that knife anymore because a lot of the new guys I'm sure would love to add one to their user arsenal or their overall collection. I've seen one of the latest renditions of the GUNTING not too long ago and it still looks classy but not like it did with Spyderco made it. The first ones were made with 440V and later on were made with S30V when it got popular. I've often wondered what a full Spyderedged model would have been like? Because it was one folder that I really loved in combo edge.

[sal]

Hi Greg,

Thanx for chiming in, good to see you here. You should come 'round more often.

I've learned a great deal from the "old guys" like Greg, Jim Keating and Mike Sastre. Mike S designed our "G" clip. Now I have the good fortune to work with Mike Janich at Spyderco. Another one of the greats;.

sal

[Mrperkinsaj]

Hi Indian4,

Welcome to our forum.

Bram Frank is a martial artist and Martial Blade Craft instructor. I met him at James Keating's "Riddle of steel back in 2000. Bram was demonstrating a model he called the "Escalator" which was to be made by Rekat (Bob Taylor). Bob Taylor is another martial artist and Martial blade craft instructor that also owned a knife company called Rekat. Bob Taylor created the "Warrior" model.

I was taken with the concept and was working with Bob so Spyderco could make the Escalator for Rekat as an OEM. Spyderco had more equipment that Rekat. The knife was to have the "Rolling Lock" which invented by Bob Taylor and Spyderco at the time was negotiating with Bob to purchase rights to the Rolling Lock for use by Spyderco.

Bob Taylor and Bram Frank had a falling out while we were in the middle of developing the project with Bram and Bob backed out of the Rolling lock negotiation. We were already well into the Bram Frank design, which he called the "Gunting" and felt we had to honor our commitment to Bram. We needed to create a new lock that was strong enough for our Marital Blade Craft rating. That's when I invented the Compression lock (on demand) to meet our need. We produced a live knife, a trainer and a trainer with a blue handle to meet Bram's needs.

Then Spyderco and Bram Frank had a falling out and we stopped making the model. Hope that helps.

sal

I remember you saying this to me in a nut shell. To bad things turned sour on those dealings. Bram seems to still be really bent out of shape on how things went down. I went to talk with the next day at blade after we spoke. Me being a nobody, just some random guy, he really opened up. Apparently he’s trying to trademark his version of the Khalsa. Stating that Emerson really helped open the door on that. That a examiner had messed up years ago and this allowed a patent to become trademarked. Opening Pandora’s box for arguments to be made concerning patents and trademark crossovers. But mistake this allowed Emerson to carry on with his protection of the wave. Basically lots of talking was made on this and his on his dovetail liner locks. I didn’t feel comfortable telling him that I had made something unique, to me something was off..., and I’m glad I didn’t relinquish anything. You also said that this is where to find you. Well outside of email anyways. Take care.