Bram Frank Gunting

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
indian4
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Bram Frank Gunting

Postby indian4 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:31 pm

I have a Bram Frank Gunting made in Golden, Colorado, USA Earth, marked CPM S30V. I've had it for at least 12 years. Anyone able to give me the lowdown on this knife? I'm a collector but not an expert on Spydercos.
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sal
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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby sal » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:23 pm

Hi Indian4,

Welcome to our forum.

Bram Frank is a martial artist and Martial Blade Craft instructor. I met him at James Keating's "Riddle of steel back in 2000. Bram was demonstrating a model he called the "Escalator" which was to be made by Rekat (Bob Taylor). Bob Taylor is another martial artist and Martial blade craft instructor that also owned a knife company called Rekat. Bob Taylor created the "Warrior" model.

I was taken with the concept and was working with Bob so Spyderco could make the Escalator for Rekat as an OEM. Spyderco had more equipment that Rekat. The knife was to have the "Rolling Lock" which invented by Bob Taylor and Spyderco at the time was negotiating with Bob to purchase rights to the Rolling Lock for use by Spyderco.

Bob Taylor and Bram Frank had a falling out while we were in the middle of developing the project with Bram and Bob backed out of the Rolling lock negotiation. We were already well into the Bram Frank design, which he called the "Gunting" and felt we had to honor our commitment to Bram. We needed to create a new lock that was strong enough for our Marital Blade Craft rating. That's when I invented the Compression lock (on demand) to meet our need. We produced a live knife, a trainer and a trainer with a blue handle to meet Bram's needs.

Then Spyderco and Bram Frank had a falling out and we stopped making the model. Hope that helps.

sal

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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby JD Spydo » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:50 pm

Oh wow??!! I kind of wondered what happened because that GUNTING at the time it was offered I felt was one of the best made Spyders up to that point. I used to own 3 of them and now I'm down to one. I remember the first ones were made with 440V and then S30V. I also remember at one time everyone wanted an S30V version in full plain edge>> because I had heard that the S30V model in full PE was kind of rare and there were only a few of that variant made? Well at least that's what I was told>> not sure if it's the Gospel Truth or not but I never could find a PE in S30V.

I really liked the GUNTING and I sure miss our Lady of all Ladies "SIMONA" who we all affectionately called "The GUNTING Girl" :D She was quite a contributor to the Forum and I dearly miss her.

Now that is news to me that the GUNTING was the very first model with a compression lock. What's the old Saying?? Necessity IS the Mother Of Invention :D This is going to be a most interesting thread indeed. I used to see Bram advertise his newest edition of the GUNTING made by some other knife company in Tactical Knives magazine but I haven't seen one of those in quite a while now. A real piece of Spyder History. Which is another reason we need a sequel to "The Spyderco STory book :cool:

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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby crazywednesday » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:48 pm

So many falling outs, too bad.
Justin
mb1 wrote:
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My mind says either folding machete or tactical spatula. :)

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knivesandbooks
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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby knivesandbooks » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:01 pm

Interesting stuff! Those old mbc knives are cool, despite the mall ninja flavors.
Most used Spydies: s30v Pm2, SE Jazz Delica, SE Pacific Salt.

Most used lately: SE Jazz Delica, Hap 40 Delica, Rheinhold Rhino, S90v Native 5 LW

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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby ThePeacent » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:26 am

JD Spydo wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:50 pm

I really liked the GUNTING and I sure miss our Lady of all Ladies "SIMONA" who we all affectionately called "The GUNTING Girl" :D She was quite a contributor to the Forum and I dearly miss her.

OT, but did she ever get to re-test the HRC on her "defective" Spyderco or sent it to Sal for review? :confused:

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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby Larry_Mott » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:38 am

I've always been lead to believe the Vesuvius was the first compression lock model so this was news to me.

zhyla
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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby zhyla » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:54 am

What’s the point of the gigantic spike thumb ramp? Does it support a certain grip?

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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby ThePeacent » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:28 am

zhyla wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:54 am
What’s the point of the gigantic spike thumb ramp? Does it support a certain grip?
"As an impact tool, the Gunting's protrusions on the handle and blade are for pressure point control (think Yawara stick) that also can be utilized as a striking device. Impact is focused on sensitive areas (pressure points such as fingers/hands, inside of arm, face and neck), which when struck and pinched can stop and debilitate an adversary without needing great physical strength."

and

"The pronounced ramp, or “Bramp,” has two uses: It can be used to open the knife kinetically on an opponent’s body (but NEVER on your own limbs, as you could be cut) or, when closed, it can be used to deploy the tool like a tiny hammer or hatchet. In hatchet mode the Gunting delivers painful, even debilitating strikes and could even be used to facilitate pressure point strikes and joint locks. "

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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby VashHash » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:36 am

zhyla wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:54 am
What’s the point of the gigantic spike thumb ramp? Does it support a certain grip?
It's made for striking and also kinetic opening. It has some value but it makes the knife kind of awkward. Bram designed the knife as a compliance tool in the closed position. The blue drone model was a compliance tool in the open position too.

I still have my gunting with the kydex sheath. Makes it easier to carry.

Peacent beat me to it

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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby JD Spydo » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:53 am

Larry_Mott wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:38 am
I've always been lead to believe the Vesuvius was the first compression lock model so this was news to me.
I thought about that one but I actually thought that the Lil Temperance was the very first to have a compression lock :confused: I had a GOLDEN made Vesuvius at one time but I traded it years ago. It was out of the ATS-34 era if I remember correctly. There were some other ATS-34 GOLDEN made units in that time period as well.

It really is a shame that the GUNTING didn't last long because there were a lot of positive features on that knife and it sure is getting collectible recently. I sure wish Lady SIMONA would chime in on this one>> they didn't call her the GUNTING GIRL without reason :rolleyes:

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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby JD Spydo » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:58 am

zhyla wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:54 am
What’s the point of the gigantic spike thumb ramp? Does it support a certain grip?
The entire concept of Bram Frank's GUNTING model really didn't have a great deal to do with a tactical piece of cutlery per se because if you ever watched one of his videos it was amazing all the defensive stuff you could do with that GUNTING model>> and rarely the knife part was stressed on very much. The knife part of it was just the cherry on top of the sundae so to speak.

I encourage all of you to watch one of his old videos on the GUNTING model and all the self defense manuevers you can do with that knife. Even the GUNTING trainer had a lot of practical SD uses. The GUNTING model truly was a completely different animal all together.

zhyla
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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby zhyla » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:28 am

Cool, thanks for the explanations.

My other question was how on earth this fits comfortably into a pocket but I suspect there is no answer there :).

rangefinder
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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby rangefinder » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:15 am

Interesting thread... I was recently looking at the Bastinelli "Mako Folder" and it also uses a "kinetic" (vs. wave) opener. The Mako has "Frank Pat. US 6.725.545 B2" on the blade, so based on this thread I figured that must be "Bram Frank" and looked it up.

The patent actually describes two kinetic opening devices; the "triangle hump" the Gunting has as well as an extended ramp that is exposed when the sharpened part of the blade is closed, similar to the lever on a friction folder.

If you're into engineering and design, the patent form for something like this can be a fun read:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US6725545B2/en

The referenced patents can be interesting too. You'll see some familiar names (Emerson, Spyderco) in the list.

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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby wrdwrght » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:23 am

This forum never ceases to surprise.
Marc

INBOUND; SB Calypso Jr. sprint. ON RADAR: Rex45 Military sprint; SE Caribbean sheepsfoot; PE LC200N Pacific Salt; Kapara; WaterWay. IN DREAMS: 10V Military; 3V or 4V Shaman; Chief; Slysz Swayback; C27 serrated Jess Horn.

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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby JD Spydo » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:52 am

zhyla wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:28 am
Cool, thanks for the explanations.

My other question was how on earth this fits comfortably into a pocket but I suspect there is no answer there :).
To answer your question they made holsters for the GUNTING. I still have mine and they fit and carry very well in those holsters too. I forget which sheath company it was that made most of those holsters. However this is a case where looks are deceiving because I've carried mine in my pocket on many occasions and it really didn't bother me nearly as much as the original C-40 Khalsa model did. No one has mentioned this yet but another thing about the GUNTING model is that it had the very best pocketclip ever made IMO. I wish there were more models with that same pocketclip that had been made.

The GUNTING truly was one of a kind and truly one of the most unique Spyders ever made IMO. Even Simona ( The GUNTING GIRL) carried hers in a holster. As far as the blade itself>> It really wasn't that bad at all >> but it is another model I would have liked to seen in full SE of course :rolleyes: :D

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SolidState
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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby SolidState » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:32 am

I can't imagine having a fallout with Sal or Eric, they are so relaxed and approachable. That said, the MA community tends to be full of large personalities who frequently teach compliance more than they comply. It can make you kind of introverted...

I looked to the Gunting a lot when trying to make an SD tool. Having the closed compliance point goes a long way. I think the gunting really set off the Emerson opener.

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markg
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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby markg » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:28 pm

JD Spydo wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:52 am
zhyla wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:28 am
Cool, thanks for the explanations.

My other question was how on earth this fits comfortably into a pocket but I suspect there is no answer there :).
To answer your question they made holsters for the GUNTING. I still have mine and they fit and carry very well in those holsters too. I forget which sheath company it was that made most of those holsters. However this is a case where looks are deceiving because I've carried mine in my pocket on many occasions and it really didn't bother me nearly as much as the original C-40 Khalsa model did. No one has mentioned this yet but another thing about the GUNTING model is that it had the very best pocketclip ever made IMO. I wish there were more models with that same pocketclip that had been made.

The GUNTING truly was one of a kind and truly one of the most unique Spyders ever made IMO. Even Simona ( The GUNTING GIRL) carried hers in a holster. As far as the blade itself>> It really wasn't that bad at all >> but it is another model I would have liked to seen in full SE of course :rolleyes: :D
Yea, it was best carried in a dedicated and designed kydex sheath. I got one from Mike Sastre back in the day. It was a well made and cool looking knife. Just never worked for me however. But yea, it was a pain (literally) to carry clipped in the pocket.

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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby JD Spydo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:45 am

markg wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:28 pm
JD Spydo wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:52 am
zhyla wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:28 am
Cool, thanks for the explanations.

My other question was how on earth this fits comfortably into a pocket but I suspect there is no answer there :).
To answer your question they made holsters for the GUNTING. I still have mine and they fit and carry very well in those holsters too. I forget which sheath company it was that made most of those holsters. However this is a case where looks are deceiving because I've carried mine in my pocket on many occasions and it really didn't bother me nearly as much as the original C-40 Khalsa model did. No one has mentioned this yet but another thing about the GUNTING model is that it had the very best pocketclip ever made IMO. I wish there were more models with that same pocketclip that had been made.

The GUNTING truly was one of a kind and truly one of the most unique Spyders ever made IMO. Even Simona ( The GUNTING GIRL) carried hers in a holster. As far as the blade itself>> It really wasn't that bad at all >> but it is another model I would have liked to seen in full SE of course :rolleyes: :D
Yea, it was best carried in a dedicated and designed kydex sheath. I got one from Mike Sastre back in the day. It was a well made and cool looking knife. Just never worked for me however. But yea, it was a pain (literally) to carry clipped in the pocket.
I believe it was Mike Sastre that I got my GUNTING holster from now that I think about it>> because on that day I got a neck sheath for my Dodo and that GUNTING holster too. Haven't seen Mike on the Forum in quite a while and I do hope he's all right and doing well. Now I discovered that I also still have a holster for the GUNTING trainer>> well it came with the trainer when I bought it from a guy over at BF a few years ago>> it would probably accommodate regular GUNTING model too I'm sure.

It's been at least 5 years ago the last time I saw Bram FRank advertise his knives ( after Spyderco) in Tactical Knives magazine. I haven't seen any ads on the later GUNTING models since and I've wondered what is going on in his world. It always seemed like one of those knives that people collected rather than used for the most part. I still give Massad Ayoob the thumbs up for having the best tactical SD knife to date with Spyderco>> it's just about time for another Sprint Run too.

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sal
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Re: Bram Frank Gunting

Postby sal » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:19 am

SolidState wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:32 am
I looked to the Gunting a lot when trying to make an SD tool. Having the closed compliance point goes a long way. I think the gunting really set off the Emerson opener.
"Hooks" on folders was way older than the Gunting. I was filing "hooks" on folders in the 50's.

The original Khalsa was used by James Keating in a MBC class in New York that Bram Frank attended. James was teaching kinetic openings with the Khalsa. That's where Bram got the idea to design the model.

Bob Taylor used a Khalsa to open the knife on my chin when he was getting ready to begin making the Escalator. Bob Taylor is very skilled and I'd known him for a long time and trusted that he wouldn't accidentally hurt me.

sal


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