3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

[Cujobob]

I agree, if you want a knife to abuse... get one ground for it and don’t keep the edge overly acute. Or... as I usually say, keep a mini pry bar on you. Why would you want a knife to perform far worse just for a situation that may never happen? I suppose if you don’t cut much it makes sense...


There are some situations where 3V could make sense on a tool, but not really for Spyderco.

No offense, but the prybar thing/argument has been used out. Toughness in knives is about people who do more than open letters. People who work in the field and their knife's edge could often be damaged after making a cut (when there's no way around it). You're insinuating that someone wanting toughness in a folder doesn't know how to use one. I am not trying to single you out, but this is simply a classic (flawed) example of a common notion amongst the online knife community.

"I actually know how to properly use a knife, he must be abusing his".

Let that philosophy go and have some empathy. We're not always in settings where we can use our knives exactly the way we'd want to. Sometimes you just have to cut something and damage to your edge may happen. In that case, I'd say all of us would prefer such damage minimized.

Your argument is basically that you think it’s silly when people say design a knife to cut best. Most modern steels from Spyderco are very tough. M4 is used plenty and is very durable plus will have less corrosion than 4V.

You wouldn’t buy a screwdriver that was meh as a screwdriver but could also be a passable chisel. You’d buy a good screwdriver and a good chisel.

I get the argument about what if you’re hitting metal and want to avoid damage... but you can also leave your edge more durable or use one of the many knives with tougher steels if that’s a common enough issue for you. If you’re spending Spyderco sorts of money on a knife, I would think cutting performance matters most.

3v beats s30v in most cut tests so think of a better example.

As does M4. Have you had experiences where M4 wasn’t tough enough?

[steelcity16]

You wouldn’t buy a screwdriver that was meh as a screwdriver but could also be a passable chisel. You’d buy a good screwdriver and a good chisel.

I know you were replying to someone else, but I would and have bought a screwdriver that doubles as a chisel. Its called a demolition screwdriver and its made in the USA by Klein Tools. It is a great screwdriver, and plenty good as a chisel, pry bar, punch, scraper, etc. I also have a ton of amazing screwdrivers from PB Swiss, Snap On, Wiha, Felo, Wera, etc and amazing Chisels from Two Cherries, Hultafors, and others. So while I have better Screwdrivers and better chisels than most people would ever buy, I also value a tool that does more than one thing great. I think the point is that there there are people out there who use knives for things other than whittling hair and doing cardboard cutting tests, so why not cater to both crowds? There are plenty of folding knives for the former, but very few for the latter. Sure, there are fixed blades out there in these steels, but a lot of us cant or prefer not to carry a fixed blade. We are just asking to make some more models for us, the "tough steel nation".

Also, multitools and swiss army knives wouldnt exist if everyone just would carry a maxamet pm2, pb swiss screwdrivers, knipex pliers, klein scissors, knipex tweezers, wooden toothpicks, etc in their pockets all day. There is definitely a market for tools that arent one trick ponies. A HUGE market.

[steelcity16]

As does M4. Have you had experiences where M4 wasn’t tough enough?

Again, I know not addressed at me, but what was the point of doing a sprint run of Rex45 if it is so similar to M4 as people say? If there is a market for Rex45 when we already have M4, why not 3V or 4V? Im not a knifemaker, but it has to be easier to source 3V and 4V than some of these other exotic steels since so many fixed blade makers are using them.

[The Meat man]

You wouldn’t buy a screwdriver that was meh as a screwdriver but could also be a passable chisel. You’d buy a good screwdriver and a good chisel.

I know you were replying to someone else, but I would and have bought a screwdriver that doubles as a chisel. Its called a demolition screwdriver and its made in the USA by Klein Tools. It is a great screwdriver, and plenty good as a chisel, punch, scraper, etc. I also have a ton of amazing screwdrivers from PB Swiss, Snap On, Wiha, Felo, Wera, etc and amazing Chisels from Two Cherries, Hultafors, and others. So while I have better Screwdrivers and better chisels than most people would ever buy, I also value a tool that does more than one thing great. I think the point is that there there are people out there who use knives for things other than whittling hair and doing cardboard cutting tests, so why not cater to both crowds? There are plenty of folding knives for the former, but very few for the latter. Sure, there are fixed blades out there in these steels, but a lot of us cant or prefer not to carry a fixed blade. We are just asking to make some more models for us, the "tough steel nation".

Also, multitools and swiss army knives wouldnt exist if everyone just would carry a maxamet pm2, pb swiss screwdrivers, knipex pliers, klein scissors, knipex tweezers, wooden toothpicks, etc in their pockets all day. There is definitely a market for tools that arent one trick ponies.

Well said.

[Deadboxhero]

Lol, I think I'm going back to being a lurker on this forum. I feel like I'm wasting a lot of time on this site not drinking the popular kool-aid.

Oh don't be so dramatic :D

I never said I wouldn't buy a 3v folder I just gave reasons and opinions as to why Id rather have a 4v one thenstead. :)

Different opinions enrich discussion

I think it would be rad to see 3v and 4v go head to head.

Spyderco would make money off a knife in either and we could both agree that we would both have one in our pocket. Just like how we both like CRUWEAR.

I remember when vtoku2 was announced I was bummed because I was really wanting SRS-15 but I still bought a Vtoku2.

[steelcity16]

I think it would be rad to see 3v and 4v go head to head.

That's what i'm saying. For me personally, i love to a see sprints of 3V, 4V, Cruwear, and 52100 in the Native LW to go along with all of the other great steels already available.

The Native LW is relatively inexpensive compared to most of the other knives coming out of Golden, so more people could afford to buy all of them.

It is small and easily carried everywhere, yet plenty tough, so we would have plenty of opportunity to test them.

We could compare these steels to each other apples to apples, and to all of the other steels already out there in the Native LW.

If there is a ton of great feedback about these steels in the Native and it shown that they perform well and people are begging for more, then perhaps offerings on these steels can be expanded to other knives.

This is what I would like to see in a perfect world, but I am biased because the Native LW is my favorite model of all time!

[steelcity16]

I would rather have 3V than 52100 any day of the week no matter which application. 52100 is good. 3V is better.

I think there are a lot of people who think this way. It would be great to have 3V, 4V, 52100, M4, Rex 45, and Cruwear in the same knife to compare. Ideally Id like a Native LW for EDC and a Millie for bigger tasks in each of these.

[steelcity16]

Bumping this since 4V/V4E is a close second in the Manix 2 XL poll. Lots of good opinions here on why people want to see 4V, 4VE, and 3V in folders. We all have different preferences for steels, shapes, handle materials, DLC vs uncoated, laminated vs solid, clad vs unclad, wire clip vs standard clip, screwed vs pinned, liners vs linerless, tip up vs tip down, etc. Some people like tough steels, some like wear resistant steels, some like stainless, some like a balance of some or all of these qualities. Not sure why people get so heated when it comes to liking ultra tough steels? If you build it, we will come (with credit cards). :)

[Bodog]

.

[Baron Mind]

I like all these sprints being discussed for the native 5 platform. I think I'm ready to start snatching up natives instead of para 3's for now. S90v on the way, maxamet up next. I would love 4v or 3v after that, in that order.

[steelcity16]

I like all these sprints being discussed for the native 5 platform. I think I'm ready to start snatching up natives instead of para 3's for now. S90v on the way, maxamet up next. I would love 4v or 3v after that, in that order.

I'm with you. The Native and Native LW are my favorite EDC platform with the Para 3 a close second. A 3V/4V/V4E Native or Native LW would likely never leave my pocket. Cruwear, Rex45, and 52100 would be welcome as well.

[steelcity16]

.

Why did you delete your post Bodog? We need you on our team! Don't let these tough steel haters get you down! :D

[tvenuto]

Only on a knife forum could we equate masculinity with a particular steel composition.

[steelcity16]

Only on a knife forum could we equate masculinity with a particular steel composition.

Lol. I was just quoting someone who described non-Maxamet steels in those terms. I changed it for you.

[Bodog]

I like steels that are really hard and resist chipping more than raw wear resistance. If I can get a steel that can have adequate toughness at 65+RC and some wear resistance to boot, then great. Basically i like steels with good edge stability. Usually that means the foundation for the steel is that it is has impact/fracture toughness as a primary consideration. Any carbide formers or stain resistance after that is icing. Doesn't mean i would settle for 52100 at 65 when i can get vanadis 4E at the same hardness with more than adequate toughness and more corrosion resistance, with higher wear resistance too. I wouldn't settle for cruwear at 60 when i could have cruwear at 64 with adequate toughness.

My personal opinion is that for all blades edge stability should be what I look for first with secondary considerations coming into the picture. A lot of steels like S30V have low edge stability in my uses. The corrosion and wear resistance means little to me when the edge crumbles so easily. That's my position. Sounds like rex 45 is a great candidate that might overtake my opinion that m4 and vanadis 4E are the best cutlery steels I've used, or at least join their ranks as the best. Their compositions are kind of similar so i guess that's why i can't say i like one for sure over the other.

I think cruwear and pd1 are better than 3v for most knives because they maintain great toughness into the 62-64 rc range whereas 3v falls significantly once it hits 60. 3V would make a great sledgehammer or even axe head with hardened polls, but I think there are a lot of steels that outclass it in terms of overall real world needs in a working edc knife. Ymmv

[tvenuto]

Only on a knife forum could we equate masculinity with a particular steel composition.

Lol. I was just quoting someone who described non-Maxamet steels in those terms. I changed it for you.

Don’t change it for me, I’m not offended. Just shaking my head at the wild and crazy knife Knut culture (of which I consider myself a part).

[Xplorer]

I hope y'all will forgive me for the length of this post...

I am reluctant to weigh into this topic again, as I don't want to be misunderstood again as being opposed to 3V being used in a folder. To be clear, I like 3V and 4V and I'm also the type that would buy a Spyderco 3V folder just because I'm a steel geek and the novelty of it would be worth the cost to me. I know there are better choices that would do everything a 3V folder can do and more, but I'm not opposed to the idea of a 3V folder being made.

That said, in these conversations about "tough steel" I see a lot of anecdotal information being shared and I just want to add a little more testing-based data to the conversation so that my friends here at the Spyderco Forum can be as informed as possible. The reason this is important is because the degree to which steel composition specifically affects blade toughness performance properties is smaller than many people imagine and in fact, only a small portion of the actual result the person experiences. Heat treat and geometry have so much impact on the actual result or experience that those two variables can out-weigh differences provided by steel chemistry entirely. Steel composition has a far greater impact on wear resistance and corrosion resistance.

So, I thought sharing some of tests I do might be helpful for understanding how much or how little it really matters if the blade is 3V, 4V, Cruwear, or even S35VN for that matter.

When I make a knife from a given steel I do a variety of heat treating tests, rope cutting tests, chopping tests and when I'm done with the "normal" testing I move on to extreme abusive testing...mostly to satisfy my curiosity. But, I also do the extreme abuse for whatever interesting information might come from it. I think some of the results I've seen in testing Cruwear, CPM4V and S35VN might be interesting to many of you.

Please understand that abusive tests are not meant to mimic real-life use, but rather to see where the limits and boundaries are. Chopping a nail in half is not something that anyone should ever remotely consider doing with a knife. It also doesn't begin to tell us all that we need to know to fully understand a blade's edge stability. Among other things, a nail chop does provide some useful data for those concerned about hitting a staple in cardboard or other accidental impact with hard objects, which is the type of occurrence often referred to in these tough steel conversations. Mostly, I'm showing these tests here because they illustrate the tremendous role of heat treat and more importantly, geometry in a knife's performance.

In these first photos you'll see 2 test samples of Cruwear.
One was heat treated at 1850F and one at 1950F. Both were plate quenched, cryo'd in liquid nitrogen and triple tempered at 980F.
Target hardness of the 1850F sample was HRC 60 and the 1950F was HRC 63.

I ground the 2 samples to basically identical angles and thicknesses (total variance of .001"). I ground them very thin at first. One is .011" behind the edge and the other is .012".

Then, I used a hard rubber hammer and pounded them through a nail. As you can see from the half-moon chunks of steel missing, the thin edge geometry could not handle that type of abuse...understandably.




Next, I re-ground the Cruwear samples to be .025" behind the edge and re-tested.


I had to take pics a various angles just so I could see the edge damage in a picture.

After changing only the geometry, both knives chopped the nail in half with barely an edge roll.

I also put those samples through a bend/break test. Just sharing for the heck of it..


The two bent to within 1 degree of one another before breaking and the softer of the 2 held a lot more bend than the harder sample.


Then, just for my friends here at the forum I decided to put one of my 4V camp knife prototypes through the same test for comparison sake. I had ground that knife down to what I thought was thinner than it should be for a camp knife but I wanted to test the boundaries of 4V. I'm glad I did this test because it helped me dial in the exact blade thickness and edge shoulder thickness I will use on this type/size 4V blade in the future. For reference, the 4V here was HRC62.



I chopped 2 nails with this blade and the first one (in the belly of the blade) resulted in a small chip, while the second one (further down the blade) resulted in more of a roll.

The 4V at .015" did considerably better than the Cruwear at .012" and almost as well as Cruwear at .025", but not quite. Of course, since the 4V and Cruwear samples are not identical we cannot make direct comparisons. Interesting nonetheless that the 4V blade did so well with such a thin edge.

Last, I thought you all might appreciate having a steel that more people are familiar with to compare. Fortunately (or unfortunately), when you make knives there are always blades around the shop that are FUBAR so I grabbed one such blade in S35VN and took pics of the same tests with it as well. This blade was heat treated, cryo'd and double tempered and has a hardness of HRC 59/60. The blade has a spine thickness of .125" and it is about .0148" behind the shoulder.

I put the nail on the flat steel surface on one of my vises this time. I chopped 2 nails in half with this blade. The first time, the 2 pieces of nail went flying across my shop in 2 different directions...never to be found again :rolleyes: . But, you can see the mark the first nail left in the S35VN blade..



I taped the nail down before I chopped the second nail. You can also see the line in the steel surface where the blade cut into my vise.



You can see that the S35VN blade actually performed better in this torture test than the 4V or the Cruwear blades. I am not saying that these tests provide all the information needed or even a complete picture of the performance capabilities of these steels. I am certainly not saying S35VN is tougher than the other 2. I am showing however, that test results show heat treat and geometry have the capability to override the differences in steel composition every time. And, that the differences in toughness-related performance as it relates strictly to steel composition is relatively minor in the end. Ultimately when it comes to actual toughness of any particular knife blade, steel composition is only one small factor.

I am definitely a fan of "tough steels". I choose to use V4E, CPM4V, CPMCruwear and 52100 for specific designs, and they're all tough steels that have their strengths and weaknesses. I also use CPM154, S35VN, Vanax, LC200N, CPM20CV and M390 for other designs because they are also tough steels that have their strengths and weaknesses. The intended use of the particular design combined with wear resistance, corrosion resistance and the subtle differences in steel properties is how I decide which one to use. However, with appropriate manipulation of the geometry and the heat treat every one of those steels can be made to perform exceedingly well in any application.

I hope some of you find any of this useful or helpful. Thanks for reading :) .

Chad

[Deadboxhero]

I hope y'all will forgive me for the length of this post...

I am reluctant to weigh into this topic again, as I don't want to be misunderstood again as being opposed to 3V being used in a folder. To be clear, I like 3V and 4V and I'm also the type that would buy a Spyderco 3V folder just because I'm a steel geek and the novelty of it would be worth the cost to me. I know there are better choices that would do everything a 3V folder can do and more, but I'm not opposed to the idea of a 3V folder being made.

That said, in these conversations about "tough steel" I see a lot of anecdotal information being shared and I just want to add a little more testing-based data to the conversation so that my friends here at the Spyderco Forum can be as informed as possible. The reason this is important is because the degree to which steel composition specifically affects blade toughness performance properties is smaller than many people imagine and in fact, only a small portion of the actual result the person experiences. Heat treat and geometry have so much impact on the actual result or experience that those two variables can out-weigh differences provided by steel chemistry entirely. Steel composition has a far greater impact on wear resistance and corrosion resistance.

So, I thought sharing some of tests I do might be helpful for understanding how much or how little it really matters if the blade is 3V, 4V, Cruwear, or even S35VN for that matter.

When I make a knife from a given steel I do a variety of heat treating tests, rope cutting tests, chopping tests and when I'm done with the "normal" testing I move on to extreme abusive testing...mostly to satisfy my curiosity. But, I also do the extreme abuse for whatever interesting information might come from it. I think some of the results I've seen in testing Cruwear, CPM4V and S35VN might be interesting to many of you.

Please understand that abusive tests are not meant to mimic real-life use, but rather to see where the limits and boundaries are. Chopping a nail in half is not something that anyone should ever remotely consider doing with a knife. It also doesn't begin to tell us all that we need to know to fully understand a blade's edge stability. Among other things, a nail chop does provide some useful data for those concerned about hitting a staple in cardboard or other accidental impact with hard objects, which is the type of occurrence often referred to in these tough steel conversations. Mostly, I'm showing these tests here because they illustrate the tremendous role of heat treat and more importantly, geometry in a knife's performance.

In these first photos you'll see 2 test samples of Cruwear.
One was heat treated at 1850F and one at 1950F. Both were plate quenched, cryo'd in liquid nitrogen and triple tempered at 980F.
Target hardness of the 1850F sample was HRC 60 and the 1950F was HRC 63.

I ground the 2 samples to basically identical angles and thicknesses (total variance of .001"). I ground them very thin at first. One is .011" behind the edge and the other is .012".

Then, I used a hard rubber hammer and pounded them through a nail. As you can see from the half-moon chunks of steel missing, the thin edge geometry could not handle that type of abuse...understandably.




Next, I re-ground the Cruwear samples to be .025" behind the edge and re-tested.


I had to take pics a various angles just so I could see the edge damage in a picture.

After changing only the geometry, both knives chopped the nail in half with barely an edge roll.

I also put those samples through a bend/break test. Just sharing for the heck of it..


The two bent to within 1 degree of one another before breaking and the softer of the 2 held a lot more bend than the harder sample.


Then, just for my friends here at the forum I decided to put one of my 4V camp knife prototypes through the same test for comparison sake. I had ground that knife down to what I thought was thinner than it should be for a camp knife but I wanted to test the boundaries of 4V. I'm glad I did this test because it helped me dial in the exact blade thickness and edge shoulder thickness I will use on this type/size 4V blade in the future. For reference, the 4V here was HRC62.



I chopped 2 nails with this blade and the first one (in the belly of the blade) resulted in a small chip, while the second one (further down the blade) resulted in more of a roll.

The 4V at .015" did considerably better than the Cruwear at .012" and almost as well as Cruwear at .025", but not quite. Of course, since the 4V and Cruwear samples are not identical we cannot make direct comparisons. Interesting nonetheless that the 4V blade did so well with such a thin edge.

Last, I thought you all might appreciate having a steel that more people are familiar with to compare. Fortunately (or unfortunately), when you make knives there are always blades around the shop that are FUBAR so I grabbed one such blade in S35VN and took pics of the same tests with it as well. This blade was heat treated, cryo'd and double tempered and has a hardness of HRC 59/60. The blade has a spine thickness of .125" and it is about .0148" behind the shoulder.

I put the nail on the flat steel surface on one of my vises this time. I chopped 2 nails in half with this blade. The first time, the 2 pieces of nail went flying across my shop in 2 different directions...never to be found again :rolleyes: . But, you can see the mark the first nail left in the S35VN blade..



I taped the nail down before I chopped the second nail. You can also see the line in the steel surface where the blade cut into my vise.



You can see that the S35VN blade actually performed better in this torture test than the 4V or the Cruwear blades. I am not saying that these tests provide all the information needed or even a complete picture of the performance capabilities of these steels. I am certainly not saying S35VN is tougher than the other 2. I am showing however, that test results show heat treat and geometry have the capability to override the differences in steel composition every time. And, that the differences in toughness-related performance as it relates strictly to steel composition is relatively minor in the end. Ultimately when it comes to actual toughness of any particular knife blade, steel composition is only one small factor.

I am definitely a fan of "tough steels". I choose to use V4E, CPM4V, CPMCruwer and 52100 for specific designs, and they're all tough steels that have their strengths and weaknesses. I also use CPM154, S35VN, Vanax, LC200N, CPM20CV and M390 for other designs because they are also tough steels that have their strengths and weaknesses. The intended use of the particular design combined with wear resistance, corrosion resistance and the subtle differences in steel properties is how I decide which one to use. However, with appropriate manipulation of the geometry and the heat treat every one of those steels can be made to perform exceedingly well in any application.

I hope some of you find any of this useful or helpful. Thanks for reading :) .

Chad

Above and beyond man. That took alot of time and free labor to share with us Chad.
Great read.

[husq2100]

Awesome work there Xplorer! can I ask, and im not being smart, but how consistant would nail manufacture be?

cheers
Serg

[Xplorer]

Awesome work there Xplorer! can I ask, and im not being smart, but how consistant would nail manufacture be?

cheers
Serg

Hi Serg. I would only be speculating if i offered an answer to your question. I haven't looked into that. I'd assume they are somewhat consistent based on how it feels to cut them but i truly don't know. I can say they are all from the same box/lot of nails.
I can also say I've done these tests dozens of times with a lot of different steels and every time the results directly correspond to the geometry.

Best regards
Chad