Steel that takes the keenest (sharpest) edge?

[Bodog]

Did the sharpness tester test only the actual edge or can it take into account blade geometry? I believe it only accounts for the edge and does not account for how the geometry factors into it, and i believe the testing may not account for other variables. It's a data point, and a valuable one at that, but I've never personally experienced any SxxV steels that could stand up to my uses like M4 class steels. And I've personally used a lot of great steels done right by solid makers. I can say a lot of good things about a lot of steels. But i stand on my own experience because in the end your uses and my uses aren't the same.

Yes, it's subjective and no, i don't care. I've seen what I've seen. That's why i cannot discount all of these people who want cruwear as their preferred blade steel even though i don't personally agree that it could be the best. Their experiences and life journey have led them to believe that it is a far more solid steel than your or my favorites. I'd hope you can accept that as a fellow aficionado, i can without losing a minute of sleep over it.

Geometry was exactly the same, both knives were Mule Teams.

Which steel did you suggest for the bowie and why was 4V the selected steel? If S110V can do everything in a regular knife, why wasn't that selected? Just curious. I personally believe 4V was a great, possibly the best, selection based on the knife but if S110V has adequate toughness, is easy to sharpen, and has great edge retention, then why don't we see the bowie with that steel? My position is that either 1)spyderco is just trying to sell knives to people that don't know better or 2) 4V is a damned fine steel that has great edge retention and enough toughness to be abused that other steels like S110V doesn't have and you and other knowledgeable people who collaborated for the knife agree. If the latter is the case, then you can't say people are wrong for wanting the same qualities in a folding knife. If the former is true, then that flies in the face of the stated beliefs of everyone who helped design and manufacture the knife.

CPM 4V has the best properties overall for that type of knife.

However I tested it in both CPM 10V AND CPM S30V and beat the crap out of it and couldn't hurt it.

Pounded it through nailes and hardened steel staples in S30v and it didn't hurt the edge.

For which steel did you advocate?

[Ankerson]

Geometry was exactly the same, both knives were Mule Teams.

Which steel did you suggest for the bowie and why was 4V the selected steel? If S110V can do everything in a regular knife, why wasn't that selected? Just curious. I personally believe 4V was a great, possibly the best, selection based on the knife but if S110V has adequate toughness, is easy to sharpen, and has great edge retention, then why don't we see the bowie with that steel? My position is that either 1)spyderco is just trying to sell knives to people that don't know better or 2) 4V is a damned fine steel that has great edge retention and enough toughness to be abused that other steels like S110V doesn't have and you and other knowledgeable people who collaborated for the knife agree. If the latter is the case, then you can't say people are wrong for wanting the same qualities in a folding knife. If the former is true, then that flies in the face of the stated beliefs of everyone who helped design and manufacture the knife.

CPM 4V has the best properties overall for that type of knife.

However I tested it in both CPM 10V AND CPM S30V and beat the crap out of it and couldn't hurt it.

Pounded it through nailes and hardened steel staples in S30v and it didn't hurt the edge.

For which steel did you advocate?

I chose CPM 4V.

Was going to be either CPM 4V or CPM M4 IMO.


Could have made it stainless also, S35VN or CPM 154 would have been good choices, but I didn't want it to be in stainless.

[Tucson Tom]

I've learned a lot from this thread, and am sure I can go back to reread it and learn more. One comment that caught my eye was the concept that unless you are sharpening with diamond, you are just tearing carbide grains out of high carbide steels. This sort of explains why I am able to get such a nice edge on 52100 with my sharpmaker and my current skills but have had mediocre results on other steels.

So my question now is this: Will the ceramic rods that come with the sharpmaker cut the carbides in a steel like S110V or Maxamet, or do I need to upgrade my equipment to something that will use diamond or some other extreme hardness abrasive to put a truly fine edge on high carbide steels?
I have the sharpmaker diamond rods, but they are 220 grit or so and only suited for reprofiling work.

[bearfacedkiller]

The prototype that we saw was in 10V. That tells me that Jim likely chose that for his own personal knife.

Why do I think 4V was chosen? Well, it is for the masses. It is a field knife and 4V is likely easier to sharpen in the field. That probably matters to the masses who are not all expert sharpeners. Also, the masses will always have folks who are extremely abusive to knives. Somebody will be making YouTube videos of this thing doing things that knives shouldn’t be doing because for some reason that is how knives get reviewed now. A knife for the masses needs to be durable enough to survive the more abuse folks in that mass. That is why so many knives are over built and why we don’t see production knives with edges ground as thin as custom knives. Lastly, it likely won’t be a cheap knife and using 4V over 10V like Jim’s personal model likely allows a slightly lower price point due to both material cost and machining. I doubt the choice was made because 10V was not capable but rather that they had other factors to consider.

One last thought. Knives that offer unique steels (which 4V is in production knives) usually results in decent sales. Us geeks like to try out new steels.

[Ankerson]

The prototype that we saw was in 10V. That tells me that Jim likely chose that for his own personal knife.

Why do I think 4V was chosen? Well, it is for the masses. It is a field knife and 4V is likely easier to sharpen in the field. That probably matters to the masses who are not all expert sharpeners. Also, the masses will always have folks who are extremely abusive to knives. Somebody will be making YouTube videos of this thing doing things that knives shouldn’t be doing because for some reason that is how knives get reviewed now. A knife for the masses needs to be durable enough to survive the more abuse folks in that mass. That is why so many knives are over built and why we don’t see production knives with edges ground as thin as custom knives. Lastly, it likely won’t be a cheap knife and using 4V over 10V like Jim’s personal model likely allows a slightly lower price point due to both material cost and machining. I doubt the choice was made because 10V was not capable but rather that they had other factors to consider.

One last thought. Knives that offer unique steels (which 4V is in production knives) usually results in decent sales. Us geeks like to try out new steels.

That is exactly correct, and the reason why I picked CPM 4V. :D

And the reasons you stated are the exact reasons I told Spyderco when I was justifying the steel choice.

[Bodog]

Those other factors are worth considering, considering they were considered, tbh. And a lot of people don't want nor need the equivalent of a fillet knife or else the market would show it.

[ZrowsN1s]

I don't doubt your testing Ankerson. But the result is confusing to me. Is it really true that a PE H1 Mule and a Maxamet Mule should stay 'shaving sharp' for exactly the same amount of time while cutting through cardboard?

[Ankerson]

I don't doubt your testing Ankerson. But the result is confusing to me. Is it really true that a PE H1 Mule and a Maxamet Mule should stay 'shaving sharp' for exactly the same amount of time while cutting through cardboard?

This test was way beyond shaving sharp, it was extreme sharpness.

[RamZar]

I have to say ZDP-189 from Spyderco, KAI (both Kershaw and Zero Tolerance) and William Henry. All get scary sharp!

[SalomonA]

We're the knives really only taken to 400 grit? I know it is still really sharp at that level but it would have been interesting to see what the results would have looked like at 5 or 10 thousand grit, then stropped to .5, or even .1 micron. At 400 grit, the edges must have been kind of toothy compared to an edge taken to a much higher grit

[ZrowsN1s]

I don't doubt your testing Ankerson. But the result is confusing to me. Is it really true that a PE H1 Mule and a Maxamet Mule should stay 'shaving sharp' for exactly the same amount of time while cutting through cardboard?

This test was way beyond shaving sharp, it was extreme sharpness.

Ok. That makes a little more sense.

Maybe BFK was right, it has more to do with ease of sharpening than I thought. Maybe the question should be what has the best balance of edge retention and ease of sharpening?

[Pelagic]

S30V received no damage "pounding through nails"? Wow. That seems like a rare case. Has anyone else ever been able to do this? I believe you, I'm just amazed.

I appreciate all the testing. No test is perfect, and I believe that pointing out that no test is perfect really gets us nowhere. I'll often see the most knowledgeable people answer a question with "well, it depends on many variables". I suppose they are hesitant to state what they believe is fact because there are always exceptions. However, we already know it depends on many variables. Sometimes i think it's just better to give an answer even if it isn't a perfect one. If someone were to ask "which month is the warmest month out of the year?" I would probably rather hear "July" or "August" instead of "well, it depends on wind direction, precise location, elevation of location in question, nearby geography, etc". Saying "I've seen March be warmer than July" doesn't accomplish much to me. If your aunt Linda is taller than your uncle Joe, it doesn't mean that the statement "men are taller than women" isn't true. But I suppose if one doesn't give a disclaimer reminding everyone that they aren't claiming their answer is absolute irrefutable truth, a number of readers may interpret it as such or believe that the person answering the question could be asserting their answer as such (asserting their opinion or test results as fact). If only everyone would take everything with a grain of salt we could let the test results be what they are: useful data points. I've really enjoyed some of Cliff Stamp's steel challenge videos where he encountered a testing result or scenario in which he was surprised or didn't understand. Because there are so many variables, I appreciate any info I read. I even appreciate opinions based on faith alone. I do not assume the person giving the opinion is asserting their opinion as fact. In the end, it seems one of the biggest things we learn is there are even more variables than we previously were taking into account, and that these variables affect the outcome of tests even more than we previously thought. Opinions based on faith alone, while lacking quantifiable evidence, still accomplish this. They can also potentially give us a different perspective which can be beneficial in a number of ways. We're all interested in learning and that's what's most important. Steel discussions are much more controversial than they need to be IMO, although controversy can lead to fruitful discussions. One could look at Gary Creely's blade steel chart a number of ways. I personally REALLY appreciate charts like that. I do not assume Gary is asserting the chart as irrefutable fact. I realize some data points will not be accepted as fact by several knowledgeable people in the knife community, including myself. However the same could be said for any chart or conclusions, even data points themselves (for any test). It would be nice if those who were critical of the chart would state which parts with which they disagree, which could potentially lead to fruitful discussion. The existence of flaws is a given. I just want to say that I value everyone's opinion, and that I take everything with a grain of salt, whether it is a conclusion from a very highly controlled scientific test, or simply someone sharing what they've noticed in personal experience.

Sorry for rambling. Thank you all for sharing your opinions.

[bearfacedkiller]

I don't doubt your testing Ankerson. But the result is confusing to me. Is it really true that a PE H1 Mule and a Maxamet Mule should stay 'shaving sharp' for exactly the same amount of time while cutting through cardboard?

This test was way beyond shaving sharp, it was extreme sharpness.

Ok. That makes a little more sense.

Maybe BFK was right, it has more to do with ease of sharpening than I thought. Maybe the question should be what has the best balance of edge retention and ease of sharpening?

While not exactly the same question you are sort of asking a question I had when I first fell down this rabbit hole. I asked a few times way back if the relationship between sharpening time and wear resistance was an inverse linear relationship. I basically wondered if a steel took twice as long to dull would it take twice as long to sharpen and for a while I believed that that must be true since sharpening is basically abrasive wear. I never was able to get a direct answer.

What my experience has told me is that it is not and that the variable is the sharpening media. Maybe it is true with some stones and some steels but I have observed that diamond stones don’t tend to discriminate between steels, especially the more coarse diamond stones. While they may not eat all steels exactly the same they seem to abrade almost all of them fairly quickly. This led me to believe that with the right stones that steels like S110V don’t really take much longer to sharpen than the more basic steels. This is less true for me as I chase higher levels of refinement but since I tend to run somewhat toothy edges and often only use a couple of grits when I sharpen it holds true for me in practice.

This was very enlightening to me and really upped my sharpening skill. So to answer your question I would say that with the right stones that the ultra high wear resistant steels offer the best balance of ease of sharpening and edge retention. I actually find Maxamet easier to sharpen than S110V, maybe on par with M4, yet I find it has the best edge retention of any steel I have used.

[Deadboxhero]

To answer the OP question of what Spyderco will take the keenest edge that is currently available it's 52100.

Also look for the vtoku Sprint, might be stickier at the edge with that added tungsten over 52100 but it depends on how Spyderco HT it

Finer carbide, finer grain, high hardness is what promotes edge keenness.

So there is a long list of steels that fall into that category most of them are one the simple side of steels

but don't get caught up in chasing steels like that because it's really the HT that will slay over what the composition is over another. It's all about the microstructure. So it's dumb to say that 52100 or AEBL is the sharpest when it's how it was heat treated, how thin it is and how well it was Sharpened that will be the real test.

In the end, its all about user skill in Sharpening, if you could be a skilled Sharpener for a day you would understand that it doesn't matter. They all get keen.


you can sharpen through the structures to form a keen edge regardless of if it's the magic super sharp steel or not.

It just takes proper tools, knowledge and experience.

So it's silly to say that a steel is sharper then another.

Gotta step the sharpening game up

Then you'll notice that some steels will Sharpen faster or crisp up faster but the end is still the same.

you MAKE them keen.

So yes 52100 will get the keenest the fastest.

And is available in a pm2.

So 52100!

[sal]

JHi Leozinho, Salomon, Kodai,

Welcome to our forum.

Great thread you guys!

Generally speaking, ball bearing steels like 52100 will get very keen, and as mentioned I find plain edge H1 will get very keen. What can be called "sticky sharp" or a "hungry edge".

sal

[ZrowsN1s]

....
While not exactly the same question you are sort of asking a question I had when I first fell down this rabbit hole. I asked a few times way back if the relationship between sharpening time and wear resistance was an inverse linear relationship. I basically wondered if a steel took twice as long to dull would it take twice as long to sharpen and for a while I believed that that must be true since sharpening is basically abrasive wear. I never was able to get a direct answer.

What my experience has told me is that it is not and that the variable is the sharpening media. Maybe it is true with some stones and some steels but I have observed that diamond stones don’t tend to discriminate between steels, especially the more coarse diamond stones. While they may not eat all steels exactly the same they seem to abrade almost all of them fairly quickly. This led me to believe that with the right stones that steels like S110V don’t really take much longer to sharpen than the more basic steels. This is less true for me as I chase higher levels of refinement but since I tend to run somewhat toothy edges and often only use a couple of grits when I sharpen it holds true for me in practice.

This was very enlightening to me and really upped my sharpening skill. So to answer your question I would say that with the right stones that the ultra high wear resistant steels offer the best balance of ease of sharpening and edge retention. I actually find Maxamet easier to sharpen than S110V, maybe on par with M4, yet I find it has the best edge retention of any steel I have used.

I think I agree with that. My sharpening skills are no where near what I've seen from some of the people on this forum, but my skills are decent enough (and my equipment is decent enough), to get any steel I have sharp enough to split a hair lengthwise. So what I look for in a steel is "How long will it stay sharp enough to split a hair (or smoothly shave)?". In my collection I've found ZDP189, Hap40, SuperBlue, M4, S90V, S110V, and Maxamet to fit the bill.

What I guess I need to stop doing is referring to them as 'the sharpest steels'. And perhaps refer to them as the steels that stay sharp the longest... (not speaking of 'extreme sharpness' edge retention of course which is apparently equal among all steels, but 'shaving sharp' edge retention :D Easy to get into the weeds on this topic)

I have also noticed Maxamet is easier to sharpen (on my equipment using my usual techniques) than S110V. And also find Maxamets edge retention to be remarkable. It's also very scratch resistant :)

[Tucson Tom]

Edge retention and taking the keenest edge are very different things. Not that edge retention isn't important, and maybe it should be mentioned, but ...

[ZrowsN1s]

Edge retention and taking the keenest edge are very different things. Not that edge retention isn't important, and maybe it should be mentioned, but ...

I was focusing on edge retention because (I just learned in this thread) all steels can reach an equal level of 'keenness' beyond what most people could ever hope to get with their sharpening set up (Thank you for that Ankerson). And... at that highest level of keenness, all steels perform relatively the same in holding that highest level of keenness.... (as he said maybe not the result I was expecting or wanted to hear)

But, once you get down to shaving sharp levels, working edge levels, edge retention and wear resistance will determine which steel holds that level of keenness the longest....

So given that with my equipment and sharpening skill, I can get all my steels to a common starting point for sharpness (sharp enough to split a hair is as good as I can manage in any steel I have), I figured the next most important thing would be 'how long does it stay that way'.

Ease of sharpening doesn't matter as much to me (it matters a little bit though), I can get PE H1 to my baseline keeness level starting point easier and faster than I can Maxamet... but in the end I can get them equally sharp....

So edge retention.

Make sense? :o Honestly I'm not sure if I'm following all this correctly, but it is an interesting thread to say the least.

[Pelagic]

Generally any steel can get insanely sharp (with few exceptions), but in my experience sXXXv steels do not hold 10/10 sharpness insanely long. They make great work knives as they do hold 9/10 and 8/10 sharpness a long time.

[TomAiello]

For me, Maxamet holds the 10/10 "extreme" sharpness the longest.

Actually, I have a couple customs that are on that same level--both Phil Wilson knives. One is a B&T in Elmax, which isn't known for edge retention, but which I use every day, and which I'd put near the same class as my Maxamet Manix 2. The other is a K390 Smoke Creek, which I'd say is well beyond the Manix 2 Maxamet. The only real reason to point that out is to show that it's not really possible to discuss edge retention as a function of the steel only. There are too many other variables to consider.