Steel that takes the keenest (sharpest) edge?

[ZrowsN1s]

On Ankersons BF page on edge retention he ran a test with all knives sharpened similarly (different heat treatments and hardness).

"All edges were at 30 degrees inclusive and polished to 6000 grit on the Edge Pro, sharpness was tested by slicing TP clean."

In the test the intitail down force required of all the knives to make a cut into manila rope was 14-15 lbs...

"All the knives started at 14 ~ 15 LBS of down force except for M390 because it cuts so aggressively."

I believe the M390 in question was a Spyderco Mule team. In general M390, 204p, S90V, 20cp were all ranked in the top tier for edge retention cutting 5/8" manila rope until 20lbs of down force was required to make a cut.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/ran ... pe.793481/

[vivi]

For me, CTSBD1, 1095 and A2 take the sharpest edges.

[Tucson Tom]

In theory, the ease of sharpness wouldn't matter, as I simply asked for the sharpest edge possible. However, in practice, it does matter because if I don't have the skill or tools to reach that theoretical sharpness, it's pointless. :D So yes, ease of sharpening should factor into the equation.

I'm glad to hear you say all this, because you say much of what I was going to say. My sharpening skills (and equipment) are ever improving, and will hopefully continue to get better. But I will say this -- I consider myself a relative novice, meaning I think I have a fair clue of how to use a sharpmaker. My sharpest edge is on my knives with 52100. With my current skills and equipment I have been able to get an edge that amazes me on my 52100 knives with only a modest amount of effort.

Now I hope that my abilities and equipment will improve, but that is the state of things for me right now. I like 52100. People say Cruwear is a friendly steel to sharpen also, but I don't yet have experience with it.

I believe the statement that in theory, with appropriate equipment, any steel can be made as sharp as any other -- but what matters for me is what kind of an edge I can produce at this point in time. The rest is something for me to aspire to.

[ThePeacent]

as many have said, the original question has a direct answer: all of them :o

Except for gummy, plasticky 420j2 (worthless sh*t), I've had knives in cheap steels (440A, 5Cr13MoV, 4116 Krupp, and different Sandvik steels) come much sharper than knives in CTS-XHP, Elmax, BD1 or S30V. :eek:
Those cheap blades could sometimes tree-top cut hairs, shave face hair, cut circles in fine print paper, etc.

the important thing is how durable that screaming sharp edge is. :p With the cheap knives, the sharpness would be noticeably worse or gone after scraping your arm twice, opening three envelopes or cutting down a big cardboard box :confused:

typical example is an scalpel. Deadly sharp, ultra thin cutting machine, but don't try to make more than a few cuts on soft skin with it :D

[SalomonA]

the important thing is how durable that screaming sharp edge is. :p With the cheap knives, the sharpness would be noticeably worse or gone after scraping your arm twice, opening three envelopes or cutting down a big cardboard box :confused:

typical example is an scalpel. Deadly sharp, ultra thin cutting machine, but don't try to make more than a few cuts on soft skin with it :D

So which steels would you say holds that really fine edge the best? I know steels like 10v and s110v are know to hold a working edge for a long time but will lose that super sharp edge fast.

[bearfacedkiller]

the important thing is how durable that screaming sharp edge is. :p With the cheap knives, the sharpness would be noticeably worse or gone after scraping your arm twice, opening three envelopes or cutting down a big cardboard box :confused:

typical example is an scalpel. Deadly sharp, ultra thin cutting machine, but don't try to make more than a few cuts on soft skin with it :D

So which steels would you say holds that really fine edge the best? I know steels like 10v and s110v are know to hold a working edge for a long time but will lose that super sharp edge fast.

Jim did some great testing that showed that in his test that one steel does not hold extreme sharpness more than another. Super Blue and S110v represent steels at extreme opposite ends of the spectrum. I think a lot of this comes down to sharpening ability/ease of sharpening. Some claim that simpler steels hold higher levels of sharpness longer but this may be more about starting with a sharper edge than actually holding that extreme level longer.


https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/ext ... s.1304276/

[Bodog]

the important thing is how durable that screaming sharp edge is. :p With the cheap knives, the sharpness would be noticeably worse or gone after scraping your arm twice, opening three envelopes or cutting down a big cardboard box :confused:

typical example is an scalpel. Deadly sharp, ultra thin cutting machine, but don't try to make more than a few cuts on soft skin with it :D

So which steels would you say holds that really fine edge the best? I know steels like 10v and s110v are know to hold a working edge for a long time but will lose that super sharp edge fast.

Jim did some great testing that showed that in his test that one steel does not hold extreme sharpness more than another. Super Blue and S110v represent steels at extreme opposite ends of the spectrum. I think a lot of this comes down to sharpening ability/ease of sharpening. Some claim that simpler steels hold higher levels of sharpness longer but this may be more about starting with a sharper edge than actually holding that extreme level longer.


https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/ext ... s.1304276/

To be fair others have done enough testing to call into question Jim's claims. I'm not saying anyone is definitively right or wrong. I'm saying there may be more to it than Jim's tests show and for the specifics Jim was testing for it may hold true when there are a lot of uncontrolled variables like blade geometry, etc.

[Evil D]

this may be more about starting with a sharper edge than actually holding that extreme level longer.

When comparing steels like 52100 vs S110V that are so different from each other, especially in how much effort they need to get sharp in the first place, I believe this is exactly what happens. I even feel I've been guilty of this myself, as my best edge on S110V just doesn't compare to my best edge on 52100. A person like Jim who has more experience sharpening than myself may not have such an issue sharpening steels like S110V/Maxamet/etc, so he may well be starting with a sharper edge than those who claim S110V falls into "working edge" status with minimal use.

I also never rule out the placebo effect. Unless a test is done completely blind I think it's nearly impossible for anyone to stay unbiased. We all have our preferences and preconceived opinions.

[bearfacedkiller]

I agree Bodog. As always, one persons test/data should be used as just one point of reference. Many have opinions that differ from his, often including myself. I do appreciate the scientific approach he took though and for that reason it is worth sharing.

I do sometimes wonder if there is an appreciable difference in edge retention when starting at the highest levels of attainable sharpness and only measuring the first, say, 5% or less of edge loss. From tree topping hairs down to just shaving sharp my experience is that most steels lose that in a similar amount of time/use. Of course that is very dependent on what you are cutting. There are just so many variables at play.

[Bodog]

[

I also never rule out the placebo effect. Unless a test is done completely blind I think it's nearly impossible for anyone to stay unbiased. We all have our preferences and preconceived opinions.

How true this is.

[Ankerson]

this may be more about starting with a sharper edge than actually holding that extreme level longer.

When comparing steels like 52100 vs S110V that are so different from each other, especially in how much effort they need to get sharp in the first place, I believe this is exactly what happens. I even feel I've been guilty of this myself, as my best edge on S110V just doesn't compare to my best edge on 52100. A person like Jim who has more experience sharpening than myself may not have such an issue sharpening steels like S110V/Maxamet/etc, so he may well be starting with a sharper edge than those who claim S110V falls into "working edge" status with minimal use.

I also never rule out the placebo effect. Unless a test is done completely blind I think it's nearly impossible for anyone to stay unbiased. We all have our preferences and preconceived opinions.

I used a sharpness tester to measure sharpness before and after cutting so there was zero bias of any kind.

Both knives were sharpened the same, geometry etc.

The numbers are what they are, the reason why I used the sharpness tester in the 1st place, it removes all bias.


The real issue is the results weren't what some people wanted to hear.

[Ankerson]

the important thing is how durable that screaming sharp edge is. :p With the cheap knives, the sharpness would be noticeably worse or gone after scraping your arm twice, opening three envelopes or cutting down a big cardboard box :confused:

typical example is an scalpel. Deadly sharp, ultra thin cutting machine, but don't try to make more than a few cuts on soft skin with it :D

So which steels would you say holds that really fine edge the best? I know steels like 10v and s110v are know to hold a working edge for a long time but will lose that super sharp edge fast.

Jim did some great testing that showed that in his test that one steel does not hold extreme sharpness more than another. Super Blue and S110v represent steels at extreme opposite ends of the spectrum. I think a lot of this comes down to sharpening ability/ease of sharpening. Some claim that simpler steels hold higher levels of sharpness longer but this may be more about starting with a sharper edge than actually holding that extreme level longer.


https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/ext ... s.1304276/

To be fair others have done enough testing to call into question Jim's claims. I'm not saying anyone is definitively right or wrong. I'm saying there may be more to it than Jim's tests show and for the specifics Jim was testing for it may hold true when there are a lot of uncontrolled variables like blade geometry, etc.

They can doubt all they want.

I used a device to measure sharpness, a commerical sharpness tester and those numbers don't lie.

Tested sharpness before and after testing on BOTH knives, geometry was the same as was starting sharpness.

[Bodog]

So which steels would you say holds that really fine edge the best? I know steels like 10v and s110v are know to hold a working edge for a long time but will lose that super sharp edge fast.

Jim did some great testing that showed that in his test that one steel does not hold extreme sharpness more than another. Super Blue and S110v represent steels at extreme opposite ends of the spectrum. I think a lot of this comes down to sharpening ability/ease of sharpening. Some claim that simpler steels hold higher levels of sharpness longer but this may be more about starting with a sharper edge than actually holding that extreme level longer.


https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/ext ... s.1304276/

To be fair others have done enough testing to call into question Jim's claims. I'm not saying anyone is definitively right or wrong. I'm saying there may be more to it than Jim's tests show and for the specifics Jim was testing for it may hold true when there are a lot of uncontrolled variables like blade geometry, etc.

They can doubt all they want.

I used a device to measure sharpness, a commerical sharpness tester and those numbers don't lie.

Tested sharpness before and after testing on BOTH knives, geometry was the same as was starting sharpness.

It's a fact in this hobby that variables abound and there's not much we can do about it. If testing is done that disregards the need to remove all possible variables and gives "close enough" finalities, then it, to me, is a valid data point. Maybe not the only data point necessary, but one that needs to be considered regardless. Your tests fall into this category for me. Worth listening to and considering, but not the final say in my decision for what works best for me. That's valuable to me and i appreciate all of the money and effort you have expended. But i like to think i know best what works for me. I won't ever believe S110V is better than M4 for my uses and i think you'd disagree for yourself, but both are great steels worthy of attention and i think you'd agree even though we disagree about what would be best for our own uses. Your opinion based on your tests is at the very least worth considering. Cliff Stamp's is as well even though i cannot come close to having a fruitful conversation with the man.

[Evil D]

The real issue is the results weren't what some people wanted to hear.

I'm sure that has a little to do with it lol

[Ankerson]

The real issue is the results weren't what some people wanted to hear.

I'm sure that has a little to do with it lol

Oh yeah, you can bet on that.

That test left no room for perception or bias of any kind.

It was pure data, the reason why I used the sharpness tester, it's dead accurate too.

I will note however.

The knives were sharpened well beyond what the typical people can sharpen them.

The finishing sharpness was still well beyond what the typical person can sharpen them.

[Bodog]

The real issue is the results weren't what some people wanted to hear.

I'm sure that has a little to do with it lol

Oh yeah, you can bet on that.

That test left no room for perception or bias of any kind.

It was pure data, the reason why I used the sharpness tester, it's dead accurate too.

I will note however.

The knives were sharpened well beyond what the typical people can sharpen them.

The finishing sharpness was still well beyond what the typical person can sharpen them.

Did the sharpness tester test only the actual edge or can it take into account blade geometry? I believe it only accounts for the edge and does not account for how the geometry factors into it, and i believe the testing may not account for other variables. It's a data point, and a valuable one at that, but I've never personally experienced any SxxV steels that could stand up to my uses like M4 class steels. And I've personally used a lot of great steels done right by solid makers. I can say a lot of good things about a lot of steels. But i stand on my own experience because in the end your uses and my uses aren't the same.

Yes, it's subjective and no, i don't care. I've seen what I've seen. That's why i cannot discount all of these people who want cruwear as their preferred blade steel even though i don't personally agree that it could be the best. Their experiences and life journey have led them to believe that it is a far more solid steel than your or my favorites. I'd hope you can accept that as a fellow aficionado, i can without losing a minute of sleep over it.

[Chumango]

Jim, your tests rank results based on number of cuts without explicitly stating whether sharpness as measured by the sharpness tester follows the same order. Is this the case? Or would a ranking by sharpness give a different order? I remember a specific case where Maxamet cut more rope (aggressive edge) but S110V actually was sharper (or at least was after cutting cardboard, so the media cut is a significant variable in the relative rankings).

If all were the same edge geometry and edge thickness then the rankings should be the same. The edge thicknesses are not the same in all cases, which is why I am glad you note the thickness. That plays a very large role in the force required to cut.

[Ankerson]

The real issue is the results weren't what some people wanted to hear.

I'm sure that has a little to do with it lol

Oh yeah, you can bet on that.

That test left no room for perception or bias of any kind.

It was pure data, the reason why I used the sharpness tester, it's dead accurate too.

I will note however.

The knives were sharpened well beyond what the typical people can sharpen them.

The finishing sharpness was still well beyond what the typical person can sharpen them.

Did the sharpness tester test only the actual edge or can it take into account blade geometry? I believe it only accounts for the edge and does not account for how the geometry factors into it, and i believe the testing may not account for other variables. It's a data point, and a valuable one at that, but I've never personally experienced any SxxV steels that could stand up to my uses like M4 class steels. And I've personally used a lot of great steels done right by solid makers. I can say a lot of good things about a lot of steels. But i stand on my own experience because in the end your uses and my uses aren't the same.

Yes, it's subjective and no, i don't care. I've seen what I've seen. That's why i cannot discount all of these people who want cruwear as their preferred blade steel even though i don't personally agree that it could be the best. Their experiences and life journey have led them to believe that it is a far more solid steel than your or my favorites. I'd hope you can accept that as a fellow aficionado, i can without losing a minute of sleep over it.

Geometry was exactly the same, both knives were Mule Teams.


The Superblue actually had the advantage (in this test) of being like 2+ points more in hardness over S110V that was 60 HRC.

[Bodog]

I'm sure that has a little to do with it lol

Oh yeah, you can bet on that.

That test left no room for perception or bias of any kind.

It was pure data, the reason why I used the sharpness tester, it's dead accurate too.

I will note however.

The knives were sharpened well beyond what the typical people can sharpen them.

The finishing sharpness was still well beyond what the typical person can sharpen them.

Did the sharpness tester test only the actual edge or can it take into account blade geometry? I believe it only accounts for the edge and does not account for how the geometry factors into it, and i believe the testing may not account for other variables. It's a data point, and a valuable one at that, but I've never personally experienced any SxxV steels that could stand up to my uses like M4 class steels. And I've personally used a lot of great steels done right by solid makers. I can say a lot of good things about a lot of steels. But i stand on my own experience because in the end your uses and my uses aren't the same.

Yes, it's subjective and no, i don't care. I've seen what I've seen. That's why i cannot discount all of these people who want cruwear as their preferred blade steel even though i don't personally agree that it could be the best. Their experiences and life journey have led them to believe that it is a far more solid steel than your or my favorites. I'd hope you can accept that as a fellow aficionado, i can without losing a minute of sleep over it.

Geometry was exactly the same, both knives were Mule Teams.

Which steel did you suggest for the bowie and why was 4V the selected steel? If S110V can do everything in a regular knife, why wasn't that selected? Just curious. I personally believe 4V was a great, possibly the best, selection based on the knife but if S110V has adequate toughness, is easy to sharpen, and has great edge retention, then why don't we see the bowie with that steel? My position is that either 1)spyderco is just trying to sell knives to people that don't know better or 2) 4V is a damned fine steel that has great edge retention and enough toughness to be abused that other steels like S110V doesn't have and you and other knowledgeable people who collaborated for the knife agree. If the latter is the case, then you can't say people are wrong for wanting the same qualities in a folding knife. If the former is true, then that flies in the face of the stated beliefs of everyone who helped design and manufacture the knife.

[Ankerson]

Oh yeah, you can bet on that.

That test left no room for perception or bias of any kind.

It was pure data, the reason why I used the sharpness tester, it's dead accurate too.

I will note however.

The knives were sharpened well beyond what the typical people can sharpen them.

The finishing sharpness was still well beyond what the typical person can sharpen them.

Did the sharpness tester test only the actual edge or can it take into account blade geometry? I believe it only accounts for the edge and does not account for how the geometry factors into it, and i believe the testing may not account for other variables. It's a data point, and a valuable one at that, but I've never personally experienced any SxxV steels that could stand up to my uses like M4 class steels. And I've personally used a lot of great steels done right by solid makers. I can say a lot of good things about a lot of steels. But i stand on my own experience because in the end your uses and my uses aren't the same.

Yes, it's subjective and no, i don't care. I've seen what I've seen. That's why i cannot discount all of these people who want cruwear as their preferred blade steel even though i don't personally agree that it could be the best. Their experiences and life journey have led them to believe that it is a far more solid steel than your or my favorites. I'd hope you can accept that as a fellow aficionado, i can without losing a minute of sleep over it.

Geometry was exactly the same, both knives were Mule Teams.

Which steel did you suggest for the bowie and why was 4V the selected steel? If S110V can do everything in a regular knife, why wasn't that selected? Just curious. I personally believe 4V was a great, possibly the best, selection based on the knife but if S110V has adequate toughness, is easy to sharpen, and has great edge retention, then why don't we see the bowie with that steel? My position is that either 1)spyderco is just trying to sell knives to people that don't know better or 2) 4V is a damned fine steel that has great edge retention and enough toughness to be abused that other steels like S110V doesn't have and you and other knowledgeable people who collaborated for the knife agree. If the latter is the case, then you can't say people are wrong for wanting the same qualities in a folding knife. If the former is true, then that flies in the face of the stated beliefs of everyone who helped design and manufacture the knife.

CPM 4V has the best properties overall for that type of knife.

However I tested it in both CPM 10V AND CPM S30V and beat the crap out of it and couldn't hurt it.

Pounded it through nailes and hardened steel staples in S30v and it didn't hurt the edge.