Toughest stainless steel ?

[dj moonbat]

As much as I love a good edge, I decided after my Bradley Air not to buy any more folders in non-stainless steels. There are just too many places for corrosion to hide, and in theory I'm not supposed to be taking these knives apart.

[JD Spydo]

How tough are the AUS series of stainless steel made in Japan?

Also, what about 154 CM?

That's a good question regarding those past AUS series steels that Spyderco used on a few of it's older models. AUS-8 for instance I've found to be a great steel for Spyderedged blades. I have an older AUS-8 Catcherman from the 90s and I use it constantly in the kitchen and I rarely even have to sharpen it at all. For a serrated edge it really takes a lot. I also had one of the AUS-10 Native models in combo edge and it also seemed to take punishment pretty well. I guess it's fair to say that those AUS stainless blades do have great "toughness " properties based on my use of the Spyderedged models of the past.

[SCBaldr]

This thread is sort of a mind bender for me. I really don't go in for the "hard use" which many knives claim to be built for. I'm an EDCer. I use knives as I go about my day to do any number of cutting tasks I might run into. Maybe i'm at a restaurant and I need to cut up some food and the flatware definitely needs to be fired. Maybe there are some fraying strings on my shirt which need to be cut off. Maybe I need to open some mail or cut a product out of its opening proof packaging. Whatever the case may be, I'l probably never ask one of my knives to do the kinds of things that I see EDC blades being subjected to on youtube for testing and I have to think that I'm the rule, not the exception. That said, I'm a knife nerd. I make knives, I sharpen knives, I modify knives. I like knives, so I buy them, and learn about them and go to knife nerd events and participate in knife nerd forums. Beyond that, I don't really see myself needing my EDC blades to be rock proof and hard diamonds hard on the rockwell infinity scale. I've never chipped one of my edges and I've only a handful of times perceptibly worn down an edge in one sitting when breaking down lots of cardboard. So I'll probably never see the benefits of having any of the steels I have. That said, I will vote for straight 1055 in the thoughness department.

The quality that is much more important to me is the ability of a steel to easily take a scary sharp fine edge. For that, traditional French Carbon steel is really hard to beat. When I was a professional cook, I had a Victorinox as my workhorse and I found myself having to touch up the edge a few times every night and even when I would sit down with the stones and strops, I was never able to achieve the kind of edge quality which all of my bosses, who had older Sabatier and Theirs Issard Models had. For me, this is why I love my Opinel Carbone and will likely never get rid of it. I would like to see a steel that has this quality in a delica or PM2.

Try the 52100 PM2. Performance should be fairly similar to the carbon steel from Sabatier and better than Opinel.

Yeah, I've been trying to lay hands on 52100 blade for a while now. Issue is, I don't like having Multiple of the same knife just because they have different blade steels. I've already got a Para3 in Maxamet, a PM2 in CPM-S110V, A Military in CTS-204P, a Manix 2 in Maxamet, an Endura 4 FFG in ZDP-189, a Sage 5 in S30V, and a Mantra in CPM-M4. I suppose I could give up the Manix2 in Maxamet for a Manix 2 in 52100 if such a thing is available. Or, maybe there was a sprint run of the Delica in 52100?

[Tucson Tom]

I suppose I could give up the Manix2 in Maxamet for a Manix 2 in 52100 if such a thing is available.

This certainly was available, and a spectacular knife it was. I just did a search and it seems to be available at Knifeworks still, an exclusive.
Probably the most beautiful (to my eye) Spyderco knife I own. Go for it.

Why give anything up? A Manix in Maxamet sounds like something to hang on to.

[Tucson Tom]

Also, what about 154 CM?

Certainly at the top of my list when I think of a tough stainless for something like a big fixed blade.
Benchmade uses it in their Arvensis (model 119)

[TomAiello]

Obviously 154cm can't be a bad choice for a big fixed blade--Sal used it in his Respect Bowie.

[Ankerson]

Obviously 154cm can't be a bad choice for a big fixed blade--Sal used it in his Respect Bowie.

That's CPM 154, not 154cm.

[thewoodpecker]

Obviously 154cm can't be a bad choice for a big fixed blade--Sal used it in his Respect Bowie.

Is that confirmed? From Mr. Blond's pic of the production proto it looks like it might be D2

[npad69]

how about SM100?

[Bodog]

If no one accepts objective test results then we can say any steel is the toughest. My vote is S125V even though objective testing says otherwise. It's what i believe and no one, metallurgists or physical scientists or people with degrees in chemistry nor anyone else can change my mind. I cut a couple of zip ties and some soft copper cables and my knife didn't break, therefore I'm right.

*lighthearted sarcasm off*

We can only firmly rely on objective testing. That puts steels like elmax at or near the top when referring to cutlery grade "stainless" steels. Doesn't matter if subjective testing says otherwise. That's the truth of it. Other steels may be tough enough for your uses and that's fine, but that doesn't mean they're at the top of the heap for that specific criteria, not when you need to be correct when selling steel. When you're just talking on the internet you can say anything. When you have a business and that business relies on providing actual verifiable
information with your product or you are a scientist and your reputation relies on you providing proof to back your statements, then you need that objective info. And in this case, elmax is one of the toughest cutlery grade high chromium and relatively wear resistant steels based on verifiable, repeatable tests that can actually isolate and remove variables.

Sometimes objective testing isn't perfect but if that's all there is then that's all you can assuredly lean on and give the disclaimer that it isn't a perfect test but it's the best test available that gives solid results.

Charpy and izod tests are great examples of this.

[Tucson Tom]

Obviously 154cm can't be a bad choice for a big fixed blade--Sal used it in his Respect Bowie.

That's CPM 154, not 154cm.

This got me thinking again about the 154cm versus cpm 154 thing. Some searching led me to this comment, which I quote out of context:

The test used 154cm and CPM-154, the CATRA machine could hardly tell a difference between them.

Someone else said that unless you use your knives on a regular basis as a prybar, you won't be able to judge
the toughness of one versus the other, and this sounds right to me -- so I'll never know -- or care.

Apparently the Bencmade Arvensis is 154cm not CPM 154 -- not that that concerns me much. I remember reading that 154cm was developed for use in turbine blades, so you might expect it to be tough stuff. And indeed it is American made ATS-34.

As far as Bodog's comments about objective data, unless we run tests or provide footnotes to research papers, he is absolutely right -- we are just folks on the internet recycling things we have read elsewhere, perhaps the same misinformation.

I wouldn't expect an answer in this thread to give the one steel that is the absolute toughest. Maybe some would expect that. A list of top contenders would satisfy me, and differences among them would be moot. I would let others try to spit hairs. 154cm (cpm 154) and elmax are in my list so far.

[Bodog]

Obviously 154cm can't be a bad choice for a big fixed blade--Sal used it in his Respect Bowie.

That's CPM 154, not 154cm.

This got me thinking again about the 154cm versus cpm 154 thing. Some searching led me to this comment, which I quote out of context:

The test used 154cm and CPM-154, the CATRA machine could hardly tell a difference between them.

Someone else said that unless you use your knives on a regular basis as a prybar, you won't be able to judge
the toughness of one versus the other, and this sounds right to me -- so I'll never know -- or care.

Apparently the Bencmade Arvensis is 154cm not CPM 154 -- not that that concerns me much. I remember reading that 154cm was developed for use in turbine blades, so you might expect it to be tough stuff. And indeed it is American made ATS-34.

As far as Bodog's comments about objective data, unless we run tests or provide footnotes to research papers, he is absolutely right -- we are just folks on the internet recycling things we have read elsewhere, perhaps the same misinformation.

I wouldn't expect an answer in this thread to give the one steel that is the absolute toughest. Maybe some would expect that. A list of top contenders would satisfy me, and differences among them would be moot. I would let others try to spit hairs. 154cm (cpm 154) and elmax are in my list so far.

If I'm not mistaken, and i could be so correct me if necessary, S90V is close to elmax in toughness with higher wear resistance. M390 class of steels are just tiny bit less.

[Tucson Tom]

If I'm not mistaken, and i could be so correct me if necessary, S90V is close to elmax in toughness with higher wear resistance. M390 class of steels are just tiny bit less.

Now that is interesting. Another reason to keep the M390 group as my favorite Stainless (with any form of 154 as a close second).
(I get to have my "favorites" for my own poorly chosen and irrational reasons, don't I?? )

Making that claim for S90V is what catches my eye. Not that I dispute it, but it puts it on my radar with an interest to confirm it.
What is making me think is a blade I have that is S90V sandwiched between CPM-154 -- I had presumed that had been done because
it would give the toughness of CPM 154 along with the edge retention of S90V. But if S90V is a tough steel in its own right, it makes
me think that it was done for the pure novelty of making a sandwich blade.

[Bodog]

If I'm not mistaken, and i could be so correct me if necessary, S90V is close to elmax in toughness with higher wear resistance. M390 class of steels are just tiny bit less.

Now that is interesting. Another reason to keep the M390 group as my favorite Stainless (with any form of 154 as a close second).
(I get to have my "favorites" for my own poorly chosen and irrational reasons, don't I?? )

Making that claim for S90V is what catches my eye. Not that I dispute it, but it puts it on my radar with an interest to confirm it.
What is making me think is a blade I have that is S90V sandwiched between CPM-154 -- I had presumed that had been done because
it would give the toughness of CPM 154 along with the edge retention of S90V. But if S90V is a tough steel in its own right, it makes
me think that it was done for the pure novelty of making a sandwich blade.

Fairly informative. Skip to elmax:

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/review ... ml#S_Elmax

[Xplorer]

My understanding until recently has been that Elmax was the toughest PM grade cutlery stainless available, based on objective test results. While working directly with Uddeholm on the Vanax heat treating project they directly confirmed that Vanax is a full 25% tougher than Elmax. There is a fair amount of data on this subject available from Uddeholm in addition to what little bit you can find in this data sheet ...https://www.uddeholm.com/app/uploads/si ... 705-e1.pdf

CK

[Bodog]

My understanding until recently has been that Elmax was the toughest PM grade cutlery stainless available, based on objective test results. While working directly with Uddeholm on the Vanax heat treating project they directly confirmed that Vanax is a full 25% tougher than Elmax. There is a fair amount of data on this subject available from Uddeholm in addition to what little bit you can find in this data sheet ...https://www.uddeholm.com/app/uploads/si ... 705-e1.pdf

CK

Nice. Hopefully we can try it out soon. Any updates thoughts on it?

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I have a related question about toughness in steel. Are some forms of stainless steel tougher in one section than another, like certain forms of glass, or, are the properties across the board? Isotropic vs anisotropic are the technical terms. Isotropic means the properties are the same in all directions and the anisotropic materials have directional properties, like tensile vs compressive strength. Steel tends to be isotropic but I am asking if anyone here knows of stainless knife steel that is directionally-dependent?

[Sjucaveman]

Maybe Damascus? Due to the directionality of the folds in some varieties?

[ZrowsN1s]

Obviously 154cm can't be a bad choice for a big fixed blade--Sal used it in his Respect Bowie.

I've only had one knife in CPM 154 and it was a tiny little thing (CA legal Kershaw Launch), so I can't really compare it to 154CM.

But in regards to 154CM itself, I've got a dozen Emersons in 154CM (57-59 Rockwell), with rare exception 154CM is all they use. And heat treated like that with their thick blade stock, it's pretty tough stuff. If I was going to use any knife in my collection as a prybar, it would probably be one of those (I carry a mini prybar instead these days :D) I don't know if they are really "The #1 Hard Use Knife in the World" like it says on the box, but pretty tough.

[wrdwrght]

Leaving aside the truly tough nitrogen-based H1 and LC200N, and reputedly tough carbon-based steels that either have fallen out of fashion or have yet to gain traction, S30V would be my candidate for "toughest stainless" (once the likely-brittled factory-edge has been reprofiled).

But, truth be told (and I think Jim Ankerson tells it), toughness in typically-tasked folders is not likely to matter beyond hoping for a rolled edge over a chipped one.

FWIW, I have yet to chip either my favored 204P or M390 Spydies or my slightly less-favored XHP or S110V ones in typical use, but I have rolled them occasionally, so they are tough enough for me.

Why Blade Sports competitors choose the steels they do remains a mystery to me. But I would suspect that corrosion-resistance plays a distant second-fiddle to wear- and fracture-resistance, hence the place of M4 and such in the test.