Taking apart knives - part 2

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gmhauy
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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby gmhauy » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:25 am

sal wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:22 pm
Taking apart knives – part 2

I’d like to thank all of you for the great information on the issue mentioned. My primary purpose for the thread was more to raise awareness that it is a problem and hope that just the greater awareness would help contribute to reducing the problem. Many people didn’t ever realize it was a problem.
I stayed out of the discussion because I really needed your input without my opinions involved. With the many posts, I have a lot to study.

FYI, we don’t plan to pin our knives or make it impossible for you to take them apart. We will continually try to make them stronger so if you do take them apart, it will be more difficult to damage them. (Eg: the case of the flippers & the washers). Trying to add something to determine “IF” they were taken apart is probably not something we can expect dealers to pay much attention to, especially dealers like Amazon. Also it becomes a “policing action” which has its own issues.

I would hope that you will discourage others from returning tampered knives and if you were doing it, you now know it is a problem.

Fruitful discussion. Thanx much. (I will be discussing the shipping of internal parts on another thread).

sal
Dear Sal and all,

thank you for an interesting subject of discussion. I did not participate in the first thread because basically, a number of posters expressed the same views as mine (I like to be able to take apart my knives, if only just to be able to clean them thoroughly - that despite the valuable argument from a member that he owns a pinned knife he has used for decades to do dirty work - field dressing game - without major inconvenient).

However there was an interesting comment from someone saying that, contrary to guns, folding knives are not designed to be routinely taken apart and cleaned. Which makes me think of a line of knives (CRKT, maybe others) using the Ken Onion’s Field Strip Technology. While I don't own such a knife, I understand that the goal is to be able to very easily take apart the knife for cleaning, maybe even without tools, a lot like what we can do with guns.

So wouldn't it be an exciting challenge for Spyderco to think about and design a line of field knives that would be conceived from the get-go to be taken apart by the owner, be it without specific tool or with a tool provided with the knife? A knife made with the same quality and precision we love in Spyderco's products, that could be unmistakably put back together by the owner with the same tight tolerances as when it got out of the factory and without any possibility for (just an example) getting a badly centered blade? And by quality I mean built with better materials than the Jesper Voxnaes HVAS Folding Knife by CRKT I am looking at right now on he KC website, (glass filled nylon (GFN) handle and run of the mill stainless steel).

Just a thought I had, although Spyderco may have thought of it already - and I am conscious that it would not solve the issue of other knives wrongly returned to Amazon or other dealers after having been tampered with.

[If someone wants to argue that the knives most easily cleaned are fixed blade knives, I will answer in advance that carrying a fixed blade knife does not preclude from carrying a folding knife at the same time, they just complete each other, so the cleaning issue remains as regards the folding one IMHO].

Best,

Gerard

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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby The Deacon » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:50 am

gmhauy wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:25 am
However there was an interesting comment from someone saying that, contrary to guns, folding knives are not designed to be routinely taken apart and cleaned. Which makes me think of a line of knives (CRKT, maybe others) using the Ken Onion’s Field Strip Technology. While I don't own such a knife, I understand that the goal is to be able to very easily take apart the knife for cleaning, maybe even without tools, a lot like what we can do with guns.

Best,

Gerard

I think it's more the fact that, historically, guns have almost always been designed to be "user serviceable" while, until very recently, this has not been the case with knives. As little as 50 years ago a folding knife put together with screws, rather than pins or rivets, was the rare exception. In recent years a lot of knife features have, for good or bad, been heavily influenced by "trendiness". One hand opening, locking knives, "tactical" knives, faux tanto blades, waves, flippers, and a whole lot more. The fact that someone designed an item to do something does not equate to that "something" being necessary.
Paul
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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby gmhauy » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:48 am

The Deacon wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:50 am
I think it's more the fact that, historically, guns have almost always been designed to be "user serviceable" while, until very recently, this has not been the case with knives. As little as 50 years ago a folding knife put together with screws, rather than pins or rivets, was the rare exception. In recent years a lot of knife features have, for good or bad, been heavily influenced by "trendiness". One hand opening, locking knives, "tactical" knives, faux tanto blades, waves, flippers, and a whole lot more. The fact that someone designed an item to do something does not equate to that "something" being necessary.
I don't disagree with you, but "trendiness" apart a lot of these innovations have been - are - valuable.

And since Spyderco has often spearheaded innovation - creative approach to multi-tools, ClipiTool line recently, improvement on locking mechanisms, top notch stainless steels, etc. - why not take it a step further and try to conceive from the drawing board a folding knife that could be field tripped easily by the user and - more importantly - put back together as easily with no room for user mistake or possible loss in quality / performance? All that using the quality materials and fabrication that Spyderco is known for.

Again, just a thought about what I maintain would be an exciting challenge.

Gerard

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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby The Deacon » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:03 am

gmhauy wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:48 am
I don't disagree with you, but "trendiness" apart a lot of these innovations have been - are - valuable.

And since Spyderco has often spearheaded innovation - creative approach to multi-tools, ClipiTool line recently, improvement on locking mechanisms, top notch stainless steels, etc. - why not take it a step further and try to conceive from the drawing board a folding knife that could be field tripped easily by the user and - more importantly - put back together as easily with no room for user mistake or possible loss in quality / performance? All that using the quality materials and fabrication that Spyderco is known for.

Again, just a thought about what I maintain would be an exciting challenge.

Gerard

Gerard, I agree, I'm just saying there's often a difference between what's necessary and what people desire. FWIW, I've posted more than once that, given the number of "mechanically challenged" people here who want to take their knives apart, it would seem to be in Spyderco's interest to offer at least one knife that featured "virtually idiot proof" disassembly and reassembly. In fact, a "family" of knives like that would probably be a good idea.
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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby Larry_Mott » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:00 am

The Deacon wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:03 am
gmhauy wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:48 am
I don't disagree with you, but "trendiness" apart a lot of these innovations have been - are - valuable.

And since Spyderco has often spearheaded innovation - creative approach to multi-tools, ClipiTool line recently, improvement on locking mechanisms, top notch stainless steels, etc. - why not take it a step further and try to conceive from the drawing board a folding knife that could be field tripped easily by the user and - more importantly - put back together as easily with no room for user mistake or possible loss in quality / performance? All that using the quality materials and fabrication that Spyderco is known for.

Again, just a thought about what I maintain would be an exciting challenge.

Gerard

Gerard, I agree, I'm just saying there's often a difference between what's necessary and what people desire. FWIW, I've posted more than once that, given the number of "mechanically challenged" people here who want to take their knives apart, it would seem to be in Spyderco's interest to offer at least one knife that featured "virtually idiot proof" disassembly and reassembly. In fact, a "family" of knives like that would probably be a good idea.
I have a feeling (correct me if i am wrong Sal) that since CRKT launched one first, that is now holy ground, not to be entered.
Like Marcin Slysz's Swayback, a little too close to the CRKT Swindle to feel comfortable "copying"

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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby gmhauy » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:26 am

The Deacon wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:03 am
gmhauy wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:48 am
I don't disagree with you, but "trendiness" apart a lot of these innovations have been - are - valuable.

And since Spyderco has often spearheaded innovation - creative approach to multi-tools, ClipiTool line recently, improvement on locking mechanisms, top notch stainless steels, etc. - why not take it a step further and try to conceive from the drawing board a folding knife that could be field tripped easily by the user and - more importantly - put back together as easily with no room for user mistake or possible loss in quality / performance? All that using the quality materials and fabrication that Spyderco is known for.

Again, just a thought about what I maintain would be an exciting challenge.

Gerard

Gerard, I agree, I'm just saying there's often a difference between what's necessary and what people desire. FWIW, I've posted more than once that, given the number of "mechanically challenged" people here who want to take their knives apart, it would seem to be in Spyderco's interest to offer at least one knife that featured "virtually idiot proof" disassembly and reassembly. In fact, a "family" of knives like that would probably be a good idea.
Yes, that's what I mean.

gerard

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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby gmhauy » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:33 am

Larry_Mott wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:00 am
The Deacon wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:03 am
gmhauy wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:48 am
I don't disagree with you, but "trendiness" apart a lot of these innovations have been - are - valuable.

And since Spyderco has often spearheaded innovation - creative approach to multi-tools, ClipiTool line recently, improvement on locking mechanisms, top notch stainless steels, etc. - why not take it a step further and try to conceive from the drawing board a folding knife that could be field tripped easily by the user and - more importantly - put back together as easily with no room for user mistake or possible loss in quality / performance? All that using the quality materials and fabrication that Spyderco is known for.

Again, just a thought about what I maintain would be an exciting challenge.

Gerard

Gerard, I agree, I'm just saying there's often a difference between what's necessary and what people desire. FWIW, I've posted more than once that, given the number of "mechanically challenged" people here who want to take their knives apart, it would seem to be in Spyderco's interest to offer at least one knife that featured "virtually idiot proof" disassembly and reassembly. In fact, a "family" of knives like that would probably be a good idea.
I have a feeling (correct me if i am wrong Sal) that since CRKT launched one first, that is now holy ground, not to be entered.
Like Marcin Slysz's Swayback, a little too close to the CRKT Swindle to feel comfortable "copying"
I was not thinking of copying the Ken Onion design (no criticism here, I don't know if it works well or not and if it has any inconvenient), I was thinking more of taking a whole new approach from the drawing board / conception.
Of course the collaboration way with a view to improve an existing design may also be possible.

Gerard

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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby The Deacon » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:16 am

Larry_Mott wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:00 am
I have a feeling (correct me if i am wrong Sal) that since CRKT launched one first, that is now holy ground, not to be entered.
Like Marcin Slysz's Swayback, a little too close to the CRKT Swindle to feel comfortable "copying"

I'd agree Sal would not want to copy that system. FWIW, I'm pretty sure my first post suggesting that adding an "idiot proof" takedown folder to the Spyderco lineup might be a good idea pre-dated Ken Onion's design by a few years. There has to be more than one way to achieve (relatively) foolproof takedown.
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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby Larry_Mott » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:58 am

The Deacon wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:16 am
Larry_Mott wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:00 am
I have a feeling (correct me if i am wrong Sal) that since CRKT launched one first, that is now holy ground, not to be entered.
Like Marcin Slysz's Swayback, a little too close to the CRKT Swindle to feel comfortable "copying"

I'd agree Sal would not want to copy that system. FWIW, I'm pretty sure my first post suggesting that adding an "idiot proof" takedown folder to the Spyderco lineup might be a good idea pre-dated Ken Onion's design by a few years. There has to be more than one way to achieve (relatively) foolproof takedown.
Yeah there are always more than one way to skin a cat. Apart from the fact i am opposed to the whole idea, since i will never be convinced of the 'need' to disassemble a knife, all i can think of are mechanically challenging constructions that i feel would defeat the purpose by adding more complexity. Then again i am no engineer or inventor, so i might simply be unable to think outside the box..

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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby gmhauy » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:12 am

Larry_Mott wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:58 am

Yeah there are always more than one way to skin a cat. Apart from the fact i am opposed to the whole idea, since i will never be convinced of the 'need' to disassemble a knife, all i can think of are mechanically challenging constructions that i feel would defeat the purpose by adding more complexity. Then again i am no engineer or inventor, so i might simply be unable to think outside the box..
As I see it that's the challenge here: to conceive a design / build that would be foolproof to take apart, and above all to put back together, while avoiding both the cheap alternative of a simple unlock/lock solution with a lot of play between parts :eek: and the ultra-sophisticated custom-like solution that would have the price go through the roof :( .

gerard

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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby MichaelScott » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:41 am

Somethings I’d want to know are, what is the magnitude of the problem? How many knives per month, for example, are needing spare parts in the EU? And, how many “foolproof take-apart” knives would be sold on average? What kind of knife would benefit from tool-less takedown and reassembly? Would the sales justify the development and production costs?

Interesting ideas, but more actual data and market research is needed before passing judgement on their viability.
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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby gmhauy » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:26 pm

MichaelScott wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:41 am
Somethings I’d want to know are, what is the magnitude of the problem? How many knives per month, for example, are needing spare parts in the EU? And, how many “foolproof take-apart” knives would be sold on average? What kind of knife would benefit from tool-less takedown and reassembly? Would the sales justify the development and production costs?
Valid concerns indeed. But I am just floating around a thought of mine, I won't pretend it's the ultimate commercial idea of the year :)

Gerard

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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby sal » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:09 pm

We had the thought to make a "take-down" folder about 10 years ago, but were too busy to take the development time. about 4 or 5 years ago, we were discussing making a take-down folder by a designer that already had a working model. Then we learned that Ken had already applied for patents and then the two inventors were going back and forth, so we decided to back off. Weren't looking to get in the middle of a fight over the idea.

I imagine we could design a take-down folder and it wouldn't have to be "tool less". A simple tool could assist. Especially if that tool were stored in the knife. As mentioned, does market size justify the time, effort and cost? I guess it's worth a discussion?

sal

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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby Larry_Mott » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:52 am

I think it sounds dicey to be honest. I have no idea how well the CRKT Field Strip models are selling, but i imagine a fan base quickly filling up and then stagnating sales..

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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby MichaelScott » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:57 am

I think it will be a short lived fad. Ken’s name, CRKTs distribution and price structure will help drive sales for a while but I don’t think there are enough users who really need or want to disassemble their knives for cleaning. It’s a nifty idea but I don’t buy knives for maintenance.
There are two kinds of people in the world, those who can extrapolate from incomplete information.

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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby gmhauy » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:57 am

MichaelScott wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:57 am
I think it will be a short lived fad. Ken’s name, CRKTs distribution and price structure will help drive sales for a while but I don’t think there are enough users who really need or want to disassemble their knives for cleaning. It’s a nifty idea but I don’t buy knives for maintenance.
True, not sure there is a market here. But for the sake of discussion I can't help noting that Spyderco produces and markets (for example) the Tusk Marlin Spike Folder - and I doubt boat owners make the majority of Spyderco's clients...
There might be a niche for for a well-made, practical, solid and sharp(!) knife for outdoors-men who often come back with a dirty knife they would like to be able to clean thoroughly without taking chances. Stainless LC200 or H1 is one thing, but for some of us the pivot area or the locking mechanism deserve a complete cleaning every now and then, or after dressing some game...
Again, just a thought I had. I also note it's not new and Sal had it before :)

Gerard

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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby ThePeacent » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:58 am

well I honestly don't know how CRKT is doing with the field strip technology :confused: but their 2018 Line incorporates a few new folders that have that same technology, and they seem to advertise those particular ones above all other new 2018 blades

to me the Salts are the closest to that ease of maintenance, I just put them under water and shake them (or using a pressurized water hose, and I've admittedly run them through the dishwasher a few times :D )

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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby Larry_Mott » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:10 pm

gmhauy wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:57 am
MichaelScott wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:57 am
I think it will be a short lived fad. Ken’s name, CRKTs distribution and price structure will help drive sales for a while but I don’t think there are enough users who really need or want to disassemble their knives for cleaning. It’s a nifty idea but I don’t buy knives for maintenance.
True, not sure there is a market here. But for the sake of discussion I can't help noting that Spyderco produces and markets (for example) the Tusk Marlin Spike Folder - and I doubt boat owners make the majority of Spyderco's clients...
There might be a niche for for a well-made, practical, solid and sharp(!) knife for outdoors-men who often come back with a dirty knife they would like to be able to clean thoroughly without taking chances. Stainless LC200 or H1 is one thing, but for some of us the pivot area or the locking mechanism deserve a complete cleaning every now and then, or after dressing some game...
Again, just a thought I had. I also note it's not new and Sal had it before :)

Gerard
I'd rather see a "Spyderco Mudd" a folder that _will not_ need to be disassembled for maintenance..

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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby BrianMcCord » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:22 pm

If the cutting tasks that I perform routinely were gunking up my knife to the degree that disassembly was necessary, I would (personally) take that as an indication that a fixed blade would be a better option. I may be off the mark...wouldn't be the first time! :p
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Re: Taking apart knives - part 2

Postby MichaelScott » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:59 pm

BrianMcCord wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:22 pm
If the cutting tasks that I perform routinely were gunking up my knife to the degree that disassembly was necessary, I would (personally) take that as an indication that a fixed blade would be a better option. I may be off the mark...wouldn't be the first time! :p
Yes.
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