SharpMaker Ultra Fine Rods or Leather Strop??

[ZrowsN1s]

I'll second everything surfingringo/lance said.

I use microbevels on every knife.....
.... My touch-up process takes less than a minute. It's about as quick as putting on a pair of shoes.
The idea of spending five minutes sharpening a knife is insane to me. So is cleaning sharpmaker stones after every use.....
I get the impression some people view sharpening more as a chore to put off until it can't be delayed anymore, but I find the process enjoyable.....

You can also push edges a lot thinner if you use microbevels..... Most edge damage isn't catastrophic and only occurs in the first mm or three, so this type of edge can be surprisingly stable.

I'd definitely invest in diamond rods or a DMT benchstone before UF rods. Being able to establish a thinner back bevel quickly is essential to my enjoyment of a knife. Using a thick factory edge feels like test driving a sports car with the e-brake fully engaged and the cheapest gas you can find...you're only experiencing a fraction of the possible performance.....

We have different approaches (I convex my apex with a strop instead of using a micro bevel), but I feel like we agree more than we disagree. I agree with pretty much everything you said in your last post. Like investing in diamond or cbn, reprofiling factory bevels, and daily touch ups. I like sharpening knives. Especially for other people, seeing peoples faces when they use a sharp knife for the first time is something I find rewarding. I sharpened a kitchen knife for my friend last week, I took it from 'can't cut a tomato' to razor sharp. She called me later and said "omg thank you, this is the first time I've ever cut an onion without crying and getting a stuffy nose.".

[vivi]

Yup, different approaches to the same thing. Getting it sharp is all that really matters in the end.

The difference a good edge makes really is something. Comparing a sharp kitchen knife to a dull one, it can easily be 4x more effiecient. Compare a dull kitchen knife to a sharp, reprofiled one, and you can easily find yourself using up to 8x less pressure for the same cuts.

[npad69]

Has anyone ever tried reprofiling say steels with the likes of cruwear or even s110v using the sm with cbn or diamond rods? I'm contemplating of getting the diamonds

[Surfingringo]

Has anyone ever tried reprofiling say steels with the likes of cruwear or even s110v using the sm with cbn or diamond rods? I'm contemplating of getting the diamonds

All the time. I recently reprofiled my cruwear Millie to 10 dps using the diamond rods with an extra rod under the center of the base to tilt it. The whole reprofile took about 20 minutes. I’ve reprofiled s110v numerous times with the sm and diamond stones. Nothing to it. The trick to removing steel quickly is doing one side at a time and using an up and down (and somewhat circular) motion rather than just taking downward swipes. Not as fast as a wider benchstone but totally doable on any Steel Spyderco makes.

[npad69]

All the time. I recently reprofiled my cruwear Millie to 10 dps using the diamond rods with an extra rod under the center of the base to tilt it. The whole reprofile took about 20 minutes. I’ve reprofiled s110v numerous times with the sm and diamond stones. Nothing to it. The trick to removing steel quickly is doing one side at a time and using an up and down (and somewhat circular) motion rather than just taking downward swipes. Not as fast as a wider benchstone but totally doable on any Steel Spyderco makes.

thanks for the tip mr gringo. so if i place one of the rods under the sm platform (i am assuming its middle), it will give me a 10dps angle? how are the diamonds holding up on the substrate? like how many times (just from your approximation) can i reprofile say a s110v manix before the diamond wears out?

[ZrowsN1s]

....... The trick to removing steel quickly is doing one side at a time and using an up and down (and somewhat circular) motion rather than just taking downward swipes....

That's a good idea, I'm going to try that.

[vivi]

Yup, when you reprofile work one side at a time and get a clean bevel all the way to the apex. Then do the other side, then clean up the burr and microbevel if desired.

The diamonds shouldn't wear out with normal use. Using excessive pressure can damage them though.

Speaking of pressure...your finishing strokes should be so light that you can use the sharpmaker without holding it down with your off hand or using a clamp, and it shouldn't budge. If you're using enough pressure to move it, you're using too much.

[JaseRicco]

Hey JaseRicco, sounds like you are falling down the Spyderco rabbit hole and having fun learning about edges while you are at it. That's a good thing as the whole sharpening journey really adds another dimension to the knife hobby. You've been very polite here from the moment you joined and seem to be open minded about learning and hearing advice so I hope you don't mind if I take a few minutes to drop a few sharpening tips on you. I hope none of this is too remedial but if it is then maybe someone else will get something out of it.

The first thing I will mention is the idea of edge bevels and microbevels. The edge bevel is the sharpened part of the blade that does the cutting. The edge bevel is visible to the eye and usually extends up about 1/8" from the cutting edge (More or less depending on the sharpening angle and the thickness of the blade down there). Spyderco usually tries to send their knives out from the factory with about a 30 degree inclusive edge bevel (15 degrees per side).

Now lets talk about a microbevel. A microbevel is a secondary bevel created by sharpening the edge bevel at a slightly wider angle.

When you use a wider sharpening angle the sharpening stone only makes contact with the very small section of the edge bevel right at the cutting edge. There are MANY benefits to this. First of all, because you are only removing steel from a tiny section, sharpening is MUCH faster than if you were having to remove steel from the entire edge bevel. It also means that you don't have to be quite as perfect with your angle to get amazing results. This is because you are making contact with the apex even if your precision is off by a degree or two. There are many other benefits too like being able to add strength and stability to the apex even on a very low angle edge. The main benefit in my book though is it makes resharpening almost effortless. A sharpening job that might take you 5-10 minutes if sharpening the entire edge can be done in less than a minute with a microbevel.

Now, one of the reasons that people initially get great results with the sharpmaker even though they are new to the tool is they are using a microbevel without even knowing it. Since most of Spyderco's knives come from the factory with a 30 degree edge, the 40 degree rods will naturally start creating a microbevel. What you will notice over time though is that with each sharpening, the microbevel will start to creep into the edge bevel and the microbevel won't be so "micro" anymore. Eventually, the 40 degree edge will completely take over the 30 degree edge and you will find that it is taking MUCH longer to sharpen and you are having more trouble bringing your edge to the same level of sharpness that you were achieving so easily at first. This is when you need to reprofile and this is where the CBN or diamond rods become necessary (or bench stones or guided system).

Once your microbevel has gotten too big, you need to resharpen the entire edge back to a 30 degree bevel and bring it back to an apex, completely eliminating the microbevel. From there you have what is basically a "factory edge" again and you can begin the whole process anew. This part of edge maintenance will take a bit of time. I can usually reprofile a knife to 30 degrees in 10-15 minutes on the SM with diamond rods, but this will greatly depend on how big you let the microbevel get between reprofiles.

This is why I told you that the Diamond rods would end up playing a bigger role in how sharp you get your blades than the UF rods. Sure, you can sharpen a big wide bevel with a high grit stone and get it sharp but it is hard to match the crispness of a brand new microbevel on a fresh apex, especially when it took you all of 30 seconds to get it hair popping sharp.

This certainly isn't the only way to sharpen but it is a good way and an efficient way and will get you excellent results.

I have in fact fallen down the hole...and landed hard lol. I do very much enjoy learning all I can when it comes to anything that I am interested in. I think half the fun is researching, asking and learning. I do appreaciet you pointing out my politeness, it is nice of you to notice and comment. I see no reason to be rude, after all, this is just one big forum of indiviudals who have the same interest...how nice is that. And as far as being opening minded, I have always tried to live by the fact that we dont know everything and we can always learn something new. I have enjoyed all the knowledge and advice that everyone has given. I understand it takes time to put our thoughts to paper, so to speak, and its nice to see someone sit down and take the time to respond to my questions. You have gone above and beyond with your illustration and lengthy explanation regarding knife sharpening...very much appreciated.

Now to the subject at hand. The UF Rod came in today, and unfortunately it will be going back. I missed the part of the description where it stated that the rod is sold individually, and I just cant see paying $15 for ONE rod. So for now, I am just going to continue using the SharpMaker as is. I have seen some Strop kits for about $15 that received good reviews...should I pick one of these up in the mean time? Will the SM in combination with a strop make a noticeable difference? As far as everything you have stated, I have read it a few times and understand it pretty well. I’m just not sure where to start. My knives do not get used that often, so I am not worried about the tasks I put them through as far as edge retention is concerned. So, for the sake of leaving things extremely simple while working on my technique, should I worry about trying to put a microbevel on my edge right now? Should I just sharpen my knife with the 30 degree side and leave it at that? Should I use the 40 degree side instead? If your recommendation is to put a microbevel on the edge, can you list the steps I should take...what side to start with, which rods, which sides of the rods, how man strokes etc...

Again...thank you for taking the time to sit down and explain things so thoroughly. And my apologies for not quite getting the hang of this sharpening as quickly as I should be.

:) :) :spyder: :spyder:

[Surfingringo]

.....So, for the sake of leaving things extremely simple while working on my technique, should I worry about trying to put a microbevel on my edge right now? Should I just sharpen my knife with the 30 degree side and leave it at that? Should I use the 40 degree side instead? If your recommendation is to put a microbevel on the edge, can you list the steps I should take...what side to start with, which rods, which sides of the rods, how man strokes etc...

Again...thank you for taking the time to sit down and explain things so thoroughly. And my apologies for not quite getting the hang of this sharpening as quickly as I should be.

:) :) :spyder: :spyder:

Hey Jase, if you have new Spydercos and you are sharpening on the 40 degree setting then you are already creating a microbevel. Just keep sharpening like that until your bevel starts to get too wide and then re-read this thread and decide how you want to go about reprofiling. :spyder:

[JaseRicco]

Hey Jase, if you have new Spydercos and you are sharpening on the 40 degree setting then you are already creating a microbevel. Just keep sharpening like that until your bevel starts to get too wide and then re-read this thread and decide how you want to go about reprofiling. :spyder:

Ok, so the question becomes, is it the correct thing to be sharpening with the 40 degree side rather than the 30 degree side? If the end result is a bevel that is too wide, then why not just sharpen with the 30 degree side to keep the 30 degree angle that the knife already comes with? And the second question is, how many sharpens will it usually take before a bevel becomes too wide?

:) :) :spyder: :spyder:

[atv223]

I’ve had a SM for just over a year so let simplify this for a newbie like I was not long ago.

You don’t need anything else.

Just use 40 degree slots.

In the year I’ve had mine I’ve never used the 30 degree slots.

[Canazes9]

Hey Jase, if you have new Spydercos and you are sharpening on the 40 degree setting then you are already creating a microbevel. Just keep sharpening like that until your bevel starts to get too wide and then re-read this thread and decide how you want to go about reprofiling. :spyder:

Ok, so the question becomes, is it the correct thing to be sharpening with the 40 degree side rather than the 30 degree side? If the end result is a bevel that is too wide, then why not just sharpen with the 30 degree side to keep the 30 degree angle that the knife already comes with? And the second question is, how many sharpens will it usually take before a bevel becomes too wide?

:) :) :spyder: :spyder:

A thinner edge cuts better, but few steels can support a 30 deg inclusive edge w/o chipping or rolling (depending on the steel). So it comes with a 30 deg bevel, when you sharpen with just the 40 deg setting you are literally sharpening just the very tip of the edge - if you look closely you can see this thin micro bevel. Now you have a 40 deg stable edge that's thin like a 30 deg edge and cuts like a 30 deg edge. Because you are sharpening just a tiny fraction of the edge, it's usually easier to get the knife sharp and get it sharp quickly.

Eventually, you will sharpen out enough of the 30 deg secondary bevel that the knife seems to take longer to sharpen and may not seem as sharp (because the secondary bevel is thicker now). The edge now needs to be reprofiled by continuously sharpening on the 30 deg side until you raise a burr, then finish by removing burr and setting a new 40 deg microbevel.

How long will that take? How hard and how often do you use your knife? A blade that isn't subjected to frequent hard use could have the original 30 deg bevel last for years before it ever needs to be reprofiled. On the other hand, if your shredding cardboard and cutting rope all day at work, touching up the knife every night, you may need to reprofile the edge in a month or two.

HTH

David

[JaseRicco]

I’ve had a SM for just over a year so let simplify this for a newbie like I was not long ago.

You don’t need anything else.

Just use 40 degree slots.

In the year I’ve had mine I’ve never used the 30 degree slots.

A thinner edge cuts better, but few steels can support a 30 deg inclusive edge w/o chipping or rolling (depending on the steel). So it comes with a 30 deg bevel, when you sharpen with just the 40 deg setting you are literally sharpening just the very tip of the edge - if you look closely you can see this thin micro bevel. Now you have a 40 deg stable edge that's thin like a 30 deg edge and cuts like a 30 deg edge. Because you are sharpening just a tiny fraction of the edge, it's usually easier to get the knife sharp and get it sharp quickly.

Eventually, you will sharpen out enough of the 30 deg secondary bevel that the knife seems to take longer to sharpen and may not seem as sharp (because the secondary bevel is thicker now). The edge now needs to be reprofiled by continuously sharpening on the 30 deg side until you raise a burr, then finish by removing burr and setting a new 40 deg microbevel.

How long will that take? How hard and how often do you use your knife? A blade that isn't subjected to frequent hard use could have the original 30 deg bevel last for years before it ever needs to be reprofiled. On the other hand, if your shredding cardboard and cutting rope all day at work, touching up the knife every night, you may need to reprofile the edge in a month or two.

HTH

David

Thanks to both of you...sounds like great advice.

:) :) :spyder: :spyder:

[JaseRicco]

I know I commented on this somewhere before, maybe in a different thread, but is there anything that I can to to mitigate the movement of my rods in their respective slots? There seems to be quite a bit of wiggle, actually really more than just wiggle, and I cant imagine this is good for technique and knife edge.

:) :spyder:

[JD Spydo]

Stropping is kind of a deep subject. Check out a website called science of sharp.
I would recommend the ultra fine stone for cost and simplicity. An ultrafine stone is $14 and works pretty darn good. And if you can use a sharpmaker, you already know how to use the UF stone.

...
Having said that, after I use the UF stone, I still strop my knives...
I like strops for a number of reasons. They are more forgiving of error than stones. Stropping uses edge trailing strokes instead of edge leading, I think this better aligns the "teeth" of the blade. Using a pasted strop (a strop with an abrasive polish on it)

I can certainly back up what Brother "Zrow" has already said It's really not a "YES or NO" question you're asking :confused: Because like ZROW pointed out they are two different animals in the sharpening regimen. My best answer is absolutely both tools should be used with the 204 Sharpmaker.

I have told people for years now that if you invest the money in a Spyderco 204 Sharpmaker you would most certainly be doing yourself an injustice by not getting every stone you can get with the Sharpmaker i.e. diamond, ultra-fine, CBN ect. It wasn't until I got all four sets of stones back in 2002 until I realized how great of a kit that the 204 Sharpmaker was. I've never found a kit that equals it since, Case Closed!!

[JD Spydo]

Oh, and to answer your question, I would still choose UF rods over a strop. :)

It's not often that I respectfully disagree with my good Brother SURF but I do disagree with him concerning the use of a "strop" . But it's like I said on my earlier post that abrasive stones and "strops" are two completely different sharpening tools all together. A strop simply enhances what the stones have already attained IMO. And if you want a really professional grade strop then I would recommend checking out the Barber Supply houses or one of the Woodworking websites like LEE VALLEY. Because it seems like those two professions depend on strops more than others.

My favorite is the one I got made from Russian Boar hide and I got it from a Barber Supply company. But lately I've been seriously looking at the woodworking websites lately as well.

But I do agree with the "Emperor of H-1 Steel ( Surf)" :D that the Ultra-Fine stones would be money well spent,

[ZrowsN1s]

I would also add that I only have one ultra fine stone and don't find it a hassle to move it from one slot to other depending on which side I'm sharpening. I have no current plans to buy a second one.

*The 'wiggle' of the stones really shouldn't be an issue. Maybe try going slower and lighter see if that helps.

[ZMW]

This is one of the best sharpening threads I have read on here. Thank you guys. My skills are still below avg, I can not whittle free hanging hairs, just shaving sharp, but I will give it another try. I think I focus too much on reprofiling to 30 degrees and forget to microbevel as often, so sharpening is viewed as a "chore" due to the time reprofiling takes.

I probably put too much pressure on the finishing strokes with the Fine rods... But, I do like my strops and it does give me a slightly sharper edge, but that is probably a technique issue.

[Ankerson]

Stropping is OK for quick touchups in field etc, but there are drawbacks as every time you use that strop you will lose some edge retention every time you do it. So normally about 3 or 4 times using it then refresh the edge.

With the ceramics that's not a problem so I don't NORMALLY use a strop.

[ross8425]

I have the UF stones and I also have a strop from the holster maker I use:

http://rgrizzleleather.com/in-stock-and ... -ship.html

At $10, it was an easy choice for me :) One side is treated with some green compound and the other side is smooth leather.