Spyderco Forums

bearfacedkiller wrote:Yeah, I am sure it is pricey. :eek:

It also is designed for an application that doesn't seem to apply to knives. Although we use steels like HAP40 which is basically M4 that has been designed to have higher hot hardness and is designed for an application that doesn't apply to knives. I wasn't really suggesting it as a steel I want to see used but rather just trying to understand the metallurgy regarding the nitrogen carbon blend.

You make some good points and ask some good questions. :)

Deadboxhero wrote:

bearfacedkiller wrote:I am curious about steels that combine both carbon and nitrogen. What is the reasoning behind that and what are the advantages and disadvantages?

I was looking at various steels and came across Vancron 40 Superclean.

It has the following composition:

C 1.1
N 1.8
Si 0.5
Mn 0.4
Cr 4.5
Mo 3.2
W 3.7
V 8.5

What can we speculate about the properties of this steel? Could it be a viable blade steel? The data sheet states that it has high adhesive wear resistance which I do not think is needed in a blade but I assume is should also have abrasive wear resistance as well. I guess I am mostly wondering about the combination of carbon and nitrogen.

Darby, that's a sweet looking steel.

High speed nitrogen carbon steel? Whaaa?! Crazy, looks like they are advertising it as a HSS that doesn't need a PVD coating to prevent different types of industrial machine wear, idk about that for knives, not our focus, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't make a sweet blade based off its chemistry and other attributes from the nitrogen.

Looks like it can hit high hardness, dang, 65 hrc and up just like other precipitation strengthening tool steels with high Aus. temps and high tempers

The composition reminds me of a M4/k390 hybrid but with a nitrogen twist.

How does the Nitrogen effect the performance? I have no idea. I've been asking myself that about the stainless nitrogen steels and it seems that the answer for those might be some types of Chromioum nitrides and very fine carbonitrides that are causing "solid solution" hardening.

I dont fully understand it, I can regurgitate information about it, but to really understand it is something else.

So what does nitrogen do in low chromium steels? Not sure, I'm still puzzled by VANAX and what the vanadium is doing without any carbon.
So many questions, How hard is a nitride? what are the different nitrides? CrN? CrN2? CN? Fe2N? What nitrides are forming in the steel, do nitrides even compare to carbides? Or is it just a finer particle that occupies space to increase the strength with out distorting the lattice and not necessarily a harder particle. I have no idea, not having the answers doesn't bother me and the endlessness of it keeps me entertained. Just have to "do it" rather then speculate.


The bigger problem with Vancron 40?

Where is it? Seriously, where do you buy it?
Next, is it in the right size? Its not like you can hammer it down to knife stock in the coffee can forge haha yea they can roll it down to size but thats not an option for a regular guy, Id rather buy a new car and a trip to Mexico with that amount of cash.

Then, whats the price? looks very expensive, probably too expensive HSS is already expensive by itself, some of these Nitrogen Stainless steels are also ghastly on the price, so putting them together for an exotic steel made by Uddleholm with 3rd gen powder and I'm clenching my teeth just thinking about it. Might be some serious coin.

Lastly, How do You heat treat it for optimal performance? Thats really where the big time and money is going to go. Trailblazing kinda stuff, then just to find out you have only 10% better results with 1000% cost haha yikes.

And then, another hot steel walks by and you forget all about Vancron 40 hahaha :p

Look Squirrel! :eek:

Where am I?

Eh, forgot, guess I'll go sharpen something. :D

Deadboxhero wrote:It's 2018 and it looks like the age of Nitrogen steel and nitrides is upon us.
Is there any plans for CarTech BD1N?
(Not to be confused with bd1 or bdz1)

It is a unique steel since it doesn't substitute carbon for Nitrogen, it has both.

It has a higher working Hardeness then the other Nitrogen steels.

I've been very surprised by the performance, in fact by all of the Nitrogen stainless steel. They have been very surprising in regards to performance.

Definitely changed what I thought I knew.

Seems like something is unfolding that's in it's infancy, it might be the start of more advanced Nitrogen alloys that could dominate the next decade.

I'd be excited to see If steel manufacturers and metallurgists could explore it more with more exotic nitrogen materials that could give S110V and High speed steels a run for there money yet be more affordable, tougher, stainless and easier to sharpen and grind.

Haha who knows, but it's definitely managed to capture my imagination and focus.

-Shawn

Deadboxhero wrote:Aye, that be me

Deadboxhero wrote:

bh49 wrote:

Deadboxhero wrote: I've been using it on kitchen knives and have been very impressed. Takes the polished edge I want,
-Shawn.

What brand of kitchen knives with BD1N did you use?

Yata Knives


here is a video of my sharpening experience with a demonstration of my results
https://youtu.be/kVhnzcVvq3Q

I like it.

but thats an exclusive for a specialty culinary store thats local to me.

No Online sales

sal wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:31 am

We'll probably slowly convert from BD1 to BD1N. I would not put it on a level of S90 though.

sal

Deadboxhero wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:35 pm

I'm steel puzzled by VANAX

PayneTrain wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:04 pm

Deadboxhero wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:35 pm

I'm steel puzzled by VANAX

I loled several times.

But to otherwise justify this post, here's what I think I've read once on the internet about this stuff. I'm also actually currently in a class (in my generation-spanning college career) that addresses this subject (two weeks from now), so I'm pretty much an expert. Nitrides can form with Cr as well as Fe, but I believe we'd see them more with Cr in a knife blade. I do believe nitrides are harder than corresponding carbides, but as I type that sentence it seems nonsensical in an apples to oranges kind of way. I hypothesize that mixing C and N would create an environment where one element performs the duty of sitting within the lattice structure while the other is more inclined to form -ides in a way that is beneficial to performance, i.e. whichever one is better at the steel crystal structure does that and whichever one is better at -ides does that. Or perhaps it's just magic which is expensive and probably a ways away from being put into our fidgety hands in the form of a knife.

kitanis wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:20 pm

I would like to chime into this idea a little.

Byrd Raven 2, Byrd Crow 2, and Manix 2Lw go to CTS BD1N.. please?

How about also updating the Efficient from 8Cr13MoV to CTS BD1N too?

OMG.. the anticipation is agony :-)

Doc Dan wrote: ↑

Sun May 27, 2018 11:25 pm

I think I will wait till we have all had a chance to actually use this steel before I get all excited. It should be an upgrade to BD1, but I do not buy that it is S30V or S90V equivalent, as some are saying. I am going to guess it might be close to VG-10 or ATS-34, and very corrosion resistant.

TomAiello wrote: ↑

Mon May 28, 2018 10:44 am

I wonder if BD1N would be a good fit for the kitchen knife series?

kodai78 wrote: ↑

Mon May 28, 2018 3:13 pm

I’m going to buy the first Spydie they offer in CTS BD1N. Really looking forward to it. I’m hoping it will make its way to the ClipiTool Standard at some point as well. I have heard it’s very corrosion resistant because of the Nitrogen content and I like H1 in the two knives that I have in that steel with a Pacific Salt purchase in the future.

sal wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:31 am

We'll probably slowly convert from BD1 to BD1N. I would not put it on a level of S90 though.

sal

Despite the risk, Sal Glesser has already revealed that Spyderco’s Chinese OEM will likely start phasing in CTS-BD1N to replace the BD1 on models like the Polestar and Raven 2. If others follow, BD1N could represent a new watermark for budget-friendly steel performance. “It’s really going to come down to how many companies pick it up and promote it, how many are willing to put real marketing dollars behind it.”