Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

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Deadboxhero
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Deadboxhero » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:07 pm

bearfacedkiller wrote:Yeah, I am sure it is pricey. :eek:

It also is designed for an application that doesn't seem to apply to knives. Although we use steels like HAP40 which is basically M4 that has been designed to have higher hot hardness and is designed for an application that doesn't apply to knives. I wasn't really suggesting it as a steel I want to see used but rather just trying to understand the metallurgy regarding the nitrogen carbon blend.

You make some good points and ask some good questions. :)
Too late, now I am looking for that steel lol, will the steel questing for the ultimate steel ever end?! :D
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Deadboxhero » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:18 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
bearfacedkiller wrote:I am curious about steels that combine both carbon and nitrogen. What is the reasoning behind that and what are the advantages and disadvantages?

I was looking at various steels and came across Vancron 40 Superclean.

It has the following composition:

C 1.1
N 1.8
Si 0.5
Mn 0.4
Cr 4.5
Mo 3.2
W 3.7
V 8.5

What can we speculate about the properties of this steel? Could it be a viable blade steel? The data sheet states that it has high adhesive wear resistance which I do not think is needed in a blade but I assume is should also have abrasive wear resistance as well. I guess I am mostly wondering about the combination of carbon and nitrogen.
Darby, that's a sweet looking steel.

High speed nitrogen carbon steel? Whaaa?! Crazy, looks like they are advertising it as a HSS that doesn't need a PVD coating to prevent different types of industrial machine wear, idk about that for knives, not our focus, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't make a sweet blade based off its chemistry and other attributes from the nitrogen.

Looks like it can hit high hardness, dang, 65 hrc and up just like other precipitation strengthening tool steels with high Aus. temps and high tempers

The composition reminds me of a M4/k390 hybrid but with a nitrogen twist.

How does the Nitrogen effect the performance? I have no idea. I've been asking myself that about the stainless nitrogen steels and it seems that the answer for those might be some types of Chromioum nitrides and very fine carbonitrides that are causing "solid solution" hardening.

I dont fully understand it, I can regurgitate information about it, but to really understand it is something else.

So what does nitrogen do in low chromium steels? Not sure, I'm still puzzled by VANAX and what the vanadium is doing without any carbon.
So many questions, How hard is a nitride? what are the different nitrides? CrN? CrN2? CN? Fe2N? What nitrides are forming in the steel, do nitrides even compare to carbides? Or is it just a finer particle that occupies space to increase the strength with out distorting the lattice and not necessarily a harder particle. I have no idea, not having the answers doesn't bother me and the endlessness of it keeps me entertained. Just have to "do it" rather then speculate.


The bigger problem with Vancron 40?

Where is it? Seriously, where do you buy it?
Next, is it in the right size? Its not like you can hammer it down to knife stock in the coffee can forge haha yea they can roll it down to size but thats not an option for a regular guy, Id rather buy a new car and a trip to Mexico with that amount of cash.

Then, whats the price? looks very expensive, probably too expensive HSS is already expensive by itself, some of these Nitrogen Stainless steels are also ghastly on the price, so putting them together for an exotic steel made by Uddleholm with 3rd gen powder and I'm clenching my teeth just thinking about it. Might be some serious coin.

Lastly, How do You heat treat it for optimal performance? Thats really where the big time and money is going to go. Trailblazing kinda stuff, then just to find out you have only 10% better results with 1000% cost haha yikes.

And then, another hot steel walks by and you forget all about Vancron 40 hahaha :p

Look Squirrel! :eek:

Where am I?

Eh, forgot, guess I'll go sharpen something. :D
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby p_atrick » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:00 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:It's 2018 and it looks like the age of Nitrogen steel and nitrides is upon us.
Is there any plans for CarTech BD1N?
(Not to be confused with bd1 or bdz1)

It is a unique steel since it doesn't substitute carbon for Nitrogen, it has both.

It has a higher working Hardeness then the other Nitrogen steels.

I've been very surprised by the performance, in fact by all of the Nitrogen stainless steel. They have been very surprising in regards to performance.

Definitely changed what I thought I knew.

Seems like something is unfolding that's in it's infancy, it might be the start of more advanced Nitrogen alloys that could dominate the next decade.

I'd be excited to see If steel manufacturers and metallurgists could explore it more with more exotic nitrogen materials that could give S110V and High speed steels a run for there money yet be more affordable, tougher, stainless and easier to sharpen and grind.

Haha who knows, but it's definitely managed to capture my imagination and focus.

-Shawn
Hey, are you Shawn from the Big Brown Bear YouTube channel?

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Deadboxhero » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:23 pm

Aye, that be me
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby p_atrick » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:21 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:Aye, that be me
I just found your channel last week, and I've been watching your videos again and again. I even linked to them here and on Reddit. I really enjoy your work.

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Deadboxhero » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:30 pm

Thanks man, I'll admit, it's not the always the most entertaining content, compared to my other YouTube knife brethren that have great editing and cameras and less of the boring nerd stuff.

But it's fun to share my passion with folks that are on the same wavelength.

I'm a knifeguy first and a YouTuber second.
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby bh49 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:25 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
bh49 wrote:
Deadboxhero wrote: I've been using it on kitchen knives and have been very impressed. Takes the polished edge I want,
-Shawn.
What brand of kitchen knives with BD1N did you use?
Yata Knives


here is a video of my sharpening experience with a demonstration of my results
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVhnzcVvq3Q

I like it.

but thats an exclusive for a specialty culinary store thats local to me.

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby kitanis » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:20 pm

sal wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:31 am
We'll probably slowly convert from BD1 to BD1N. I would not put it on a level of S90 though.

sal
Ohhhhhhhh

I would like to chime into this idea a little.

Byrd Raven 2, Byrd Crow 2, and Manix 2Lw go to CTS BD1N.. please?

How about also updating the Efficient from 8Cr13MoV to CTS BD1N too?

OMG.. the anticipation is agony :-)

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby PayneTrain » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:04 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:35 pm
I'm steel puzzled by VANAX
I loled several times.

But to otherwise justify this post, here's what I think I've read once on the internet about this stuff. I'm also actually currently in a class (in my generation-spanning college career) that addresses this subject (two weeks from now), so I'm pretty much an expert. Nitrides can form with Cr as well as Fe, but I believe we'd see them more with Cr in a knife blade. I do believe nitrides are harder than corresponding carbides, but as I type that sentence it seems nonsensical in an apples to oranges kind of way. I hypothesize that mixing C and N would create an environment where one element performs the duty of sitting within the lattice structure while the other is more inclined to form -ides in a way that is beneficial to performance, i.e. whichever one is better at the steel crystal structure does that and whichever one is better at -ides does that. Or perhaps it's just magic which is expensive and probably a ways away from being put into our fidgety hands in the form of a knife.
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Deadboxhero » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:43 pm

PayneTrain wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:04 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:35 pm
I'm steel puzzled by VANAX
I loled several times.

But to otherwise justify this post, here's what I think I've read once on the internet about this stuff. I'm also actually currently in a class (in my generation-spanning college career) that addresses this subject (two weeks from now), so I'm pretty much an expert. Nitrides can form with Cr as well as Fe, but I believe we'd see them more with Cr in a knife blade. I do believe nitrides are harder than corresponding carbides, but as I type that sentence it seems nonsensical in an apples to oranges kind of way. I hypothesize that mixing C and N would create an environment where one element performs the duty of sitting within the lattice structure while the other is more inclined to form -ides in a way that is beneficial to performance, i.e. whichever one is better at the steel crystal structure does that and whichever one is better at -ides does that. Or perhaps it's just magic which is expensive and probably a ways away from being put into our fidgety hands in the form of a knife.
Man, wouldn't it be cool to get a piece to a lab to be analyzed and images for answers? That would be Rad. Problem is the para 3 in Maxemet is coming out and I'd rather get one of those thenstead :D
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Deezildude » Tue May 22, 2018 9:01 am

kitanis wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:20 pm
I would like to chime into this idea a little.

Byrd Raven 2, Byrd Crow 2, and Manix 2Lw go to CTS BD1N.. please?

How about also updating the Efficient from 8Cr13MoV to CTS BD1N too?

OMG.. the anticipation is agony :-)
Another 2 months down the line and still not even a whisper of BD1N anywhere. I totally share your agony :-)

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Sjucaveman » Sun May 27, 2018 4:31 pm

The ukpk I picked up today sports a bd1n blade.
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Doc Dan » Sun May 27, 2018 11:25 pm

I think I will wait till we have all had a chance to actually use this steel before I get all excited. It should be an upgrade to BD1, but I do not buy that it is S30V or S90V equivalent, as some are saying. I am going to guess it might be close to VG-10 or ATS-34, and very corrosion resistant.
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Deadboxhero » Mon May 28, 2018 12:32 am

Doc Dan wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 11:25 pm
I think I will wait till we have all had a chance to actually use this steel before I get all excited. It should be an upgrade to BD1, but I do not buy that it is S30V or S90V equivalent, as some are saying. I am going to guess it might be close to VG-10 or ATS-34, and very corrosion resistant.
It's better then VG10, it's working hardness is 63hrc.
At 63hrc the edge is tougher, sharpens and deburrs better, cuts longer then VG10 at 59hrc.

It's the first knife steel to supplement carbon with nitrogen rather then replace it like Vanax and lc200n.

The only other steel like that is Vancron 40 which might as well be a dead steel based on the barstock sizes available and the price BU wants.

It looks like we have to wait for steel manufacturers and knife companies to figure out that they should add nitrogen to high carbon and chromium steels rather then substitute.

It would be facinating to see a s30v modification with nitrogen added.

Seems things move slowly.

Maybe in 10 years we'll see more nitrogen infused steels
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby TomAiello » Mon May 28, 2018 10:44 am

I wonder if BD1N would be a good fit for the kitchen knife series?

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Phil Wilson » Mon May 28, 2018 11:03 am

I have a South Fork BD!N test knife in the kitchen, in the drawer for a couple of years now. The other day my wife cut and boned about 60 chicken thighs for her famous lemon grass chicken. Every thigh she cut against the bamboo cutting board and also filleted out the bone. I had sharpened it for her previous to this job with a fine Lanky diamond plate, This blade was still sharp, almost non affected at the end of the job. Yes, I know a real "scientific" test but just say I was impressed. I made a filet knife with it some time back and have used it on several trips to the ocean, fillet rock fish and general use. Both these knives are RC 60. No evidence of corrosion or any type of rolling or chipping. It is good stuff guys. I am going to see if I can get some thinner stock and use more of it. Phil

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby dj moonbat » Mon May 28, 2018 12:26 pm

TomAiello wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 10:44 am
I wonder if BD1N would be a good fit for the kitchen knife series?
I don't know if it fits Spyderco's intended price points, but I think it does tremendously well in the kitchen, where corrosion resistance and edge stability are more important than wear resistance. I still like my VG-10 chef's knife, but eventually I'm going to move to BD1N based on what I'm seeing from my smaller BD1N knife (a Ken Onion Sky 4" parer).

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby kodai78 » Mon May 28, 2018 3:13 pm

I’m going to buy the first Spydie they offer in CTS BD1N. Really looking forward to it. I’m hoping it will make its way to the ClipiTool Standard at some point as well. I have heard it’s very corrosion resistant because of the Nitrogen content and I like H1 in the two knives that I have in that steel with a Pacific Salt purchase in the future.
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Liquid Cobra » Mon May 28, 2018 3:15 pm

kodai78 wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 3:13 pm
I’m going to buy the first Spydie they offer in CTS BD1N. Really looking forward to it. I’m hoping it will make its way to the ClipiTool Standard at some point as well. I have heard it’s very corrosion resistant because of the Nitrogen content and I like H1 in the two knives that I have in that steel with a Pacific Salt purchase in the future.

That would be the UKPK.
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby sparky2016 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:25 pm

sal wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:31 am
We'll probably slowly convert from BD1 to BD1N. I would not put it on a level of S90 though.

sal
Digging up another knife steel thread.

FWIW:

Are We Entering the Era of Nitrogen-Based Blade Steels?
https://knifenews.com/are-we-entering-t ... de-steels/
Despite the risk, Sal Glesser has already revealed that Spyderco’s Chinese OEM will likely start phasing in CTS-BD1N to replace the BD1 on models like the Polestar and Raven 2. If others follow, BD1N could represent a new watermark for budget-friendly steel performance. “It’s really going to come down to how many companies pick it up and promote it, how many are willing to put real marketing dollars behind it.”
Related thread on steel changes:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80486


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