The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
Molle Ninja
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#41

Post by Molle Ninja »

JRinFL wrote:Another data point for Spyderco to process. My two Spyderco flippers (Dice & Domino) don't flip as well as my two ZTs (801 & 450). The Spydercos feel like they are running on gummy washers compared to the ZTs, whose action is superlative. There is such a wide difference that I have stopped considering any Spyderco flipper knives for now.
You can hardly call me anti-Spyderco, not with around 40 and a few on the way. I just want Spyderco to produce the best, not just OK. I know at least Sal appreciates honest feed back.
When I received my Dice it wouldn't even open with the flipper tan because the pivot was so clamped down. Loosening it deformed the torx pivot. Luckily Spyderco sent me a new screw after I posted here.
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Mic1
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#42

Post by Mic1 »

sal wrote:As it turns out, in our study of the situation, we decided that there were some issues (thin washers, etc) that would be a more complicated fix. We suspended production on all of our flippers, and we have stopped shipping Advocates until we can sort it out,. Mike has made announcements to that subject. Eric is currently meeting with the maker to discuss possible solutions for now and moving forward.

We thank all of you for your information regarding the issue. We also thank you for all of the kind words about us and out company. It's appreciated. As Mike mentioned, if you are having a problem with one of our knives, you can contact us.

sal

Thanks Sal. I really hope you continue to make the Advocate it's a really great knife and it would be a shame to discontinue it. Hope you find a good solution.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#43

Post by elmeringalo »

Surfingringo wrote:
fanglekai wrote:I also wanted to mention that it's very nice to see a company respond to feedback in a constructive manner. Spyderco will continue to be my company of choice for modern style folders.
+1
+2
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#44

Post by Bodog »

anagarika wrote: If ZT can do it it means the design & execution is possible, and Spyderco can do it too (or even better).
I tend to believe spyderco can do it better than ZT otherwise I wouldn't say anything. It'd be pointless. Notice how I don't say anything about them not making high end katana swords or whatever. They probably couldn't do that better than other companies making high end swords. I also have to believe that other good hearted people, regardless of what type of soap box they're standing on, feel the same. That's why it's frustrating. This whole issue is spyderco being unwilling to grasp it or is them putting the blame on picky customers when those picky customers are really just people who can realistically compare and provide honest feedback about something that can and should be done better in order to outrun the competition.

Stop offering bearings until they're as good as or better than the competition. That's what it seems like they're doing now and that's not a bad thing. It's a pain in the ***, I'm sure, but recalling a bunch of Cruwear blades to be re-heat treated was probably a pain in the ***, too. I know they didn't put the blame on customers with that issue, though (not saying these knives need to be recalled). Its kind of insulting telling customers they don't know a good steak from a bad one just because they didn't send it back to the kitchen. Most people don't speak up. They just decide to not eat there anymore. When you have some regular and loyal customers telling the manager they respect that the steaks could and should be better, the blame shouldn't be placed on them for the steak not being good enough to compete with the other restaurants up the block.

And it's a pretty bad thing when people on this forum and others are making fun of a guy who used to sell cars. That should stop. You do what you can do to put food on the table and that's not anything to be ashamed of. As long as it's an honest living it shouldn't be made fun of. We all do jobs or have done jobs that someone else can make fun of. I was a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman for a bit. It sucked so I moved on. But it was an honest living then and I'm still earning an honest living now. No one should fault a man for working.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#45

Post by bearfacedkiller »

I mentioned his former employment in the other thread. I sold cars myself and wasn't putting car salesmen down. He presents himself as an expert and I do not see why. It seems as though others see him as an expert too.

http://knifenews.com/spyderco-withdraws ... ot-issues/

"Spyderco announced that it has suspended production of their Gayle Bradley-designed Advocate model after Rob Bixby of TheApostleP YouTube channel and others brought attention to issues with the ball bearing pivot. The company says they will begin working on a redesign of the pivot area to increase long-term reliability."

" Bixby tells us that the Advocate’s strong lock bar tension, overall thinness, and the delicacy of its ball bearings combine to pose a seemingly insurmountable engineering challenge. “I’m a bit skeptical, given the small material thickness of the Ti scales, that Spyderco can engineer a ball bearing pivot system that is robust enough to make a solid knife,” Bixby says. “I would prefer to see a phosphor bronze washer pivot, and maybe even in a non-flipper version of the Advocate, similar in construction to a Sage 2 or Slysz Bowie. We’ll keep our fingers crossed!” "

Apparently he knows more about engineering and design than Sal, Eric, Gayle and all the other folks in Taichung and Golden? Where did he acquire this expertise? The dealership? Youtube? You can continue to demonize those who don't agree with your point of view but it is a low tactic. I wasn't putting him down I was referencing his experience. As a customer and even as a knife reviewer he has every right to give feedback and share criticism but at some point you have to have some boundaries. I feel as though he went well past constructive criticism and honest feedback and moved into sensationalizing a problem to further his own venture and I think he lacks the background to be saying some of what he is saying.

That isn't even touching on the fact that if he really had Spyderco's best interest at heart like he claims that he wouldn't be using inflammatory click bait to get views and grow his channel. That only helps him and only hurts Spyderco. That is NOT constructive.

I am starting to feel like a broken record, how about you? ;)
Last edited by bearfacedkiller on Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#46

Post by dplafoll »

Bodog wrote:I was a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman for a bit. It sucked so I moved on.
Was uh.... was that on purpose? :p
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#47

Post by Haste »

Anyone else REALLY want a steak all of sudden?
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#48

Post by Haste »

dplafoll wrote:
Bodog wrote:I was a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman for a bit. It sucked so I moved on.
Was uh.... was that on purpose? :p
Good catch - my hats off to you.
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Evil D
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#49

Post by Evil D »

Bodog, I love metaphors. Here's one just for you.

We are all standing in line at Walmart waiting to return something we've bought. We're standing there waiting patiently and eventually we will be taking care of. But, at the front of the line there's a person throwing a fit like a toddler making a huge scene demanding that the CEO of Walmart personally come and take care of his problem. Walmart is aware that we aren't happy, obviously we wouldn't be returning these items. But, there's always that one person who thinks they have to yell and cause a scene to get what they want.

Bodog, in this metaphor you are that person.

You just need to pull it back some dude. I've been following all of this really closely. I've read everything. I haven't seen one comment on this subject or the locktite issue where anyone is saying Bodog is wrong there is no problem. People aren't arguing against your opinion, they're arguing against YOU.

This forum is basically a big fanboy circle jerk. We all know it. We come here to praise the brand and for the most part everything is all peaches and cream. Then you come in here posting huge abrasive walls of text bashing on everything in every post you make. Nobody is taking you seriously because you're coming off like an a**hole.

I get it man. I believe you mean well, your approach just sucks. We now have two official statements on these issues. Production of all flippers have been stopped. Give them a chance to fix it. When production starts back and we start seeing crappy action coming out again, I will personally act as your cheerleader and we can burn the villages together. Right now though, man you're just irritating the **** out of everyone. No need to reply with a giant wall of text. I'm on your side. This is just some dude to dude feedback. I'm a fellow a**hole, I get this feedback all the time. It helps if you keep an open mind and take it in.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#50

Post by Bodog »

dplafoll wrote:
Bodog wrote:I was a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman for a bit. It sucked so I moved on.
Was uh.... was that on purpose? :p

I wish I was that clever...

But seriously, I couldn't ever sell cars for a living. Selling my own car was bad enough. It drove me crazy.
They who dance are thought mad by those who do not hear the music.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#51

Post by curlyhairedboy »

Biggest issue I've seen with spyderco flippers is weaker than usual detents.

I know ZT is held up as the king of flipping action, but let's not forget that on a good portion of their models, if you grip it wrong, the detent makes it impossible to flip.

Point is, there's a spectrum of flipping action, and although my personal preference is a detent stiff enough to deploy in any position, a lot of others would not mind needing a wrist flip in exchange for ease of deployment in any grip...
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#52

Post by Bodog »

I still think a roller detent would help enormously. When people prop open the lock bar and remove the detent from the equation they'd probably find that bearings work about as well as the PB washers. Depending on the specific knife one may be better than the other. But adding in what is causing the fairly decent friction from the detent causes, well, too much friction and I think that's a source of a lot of the issues found with spyderco's ball bearing pivots not being freer regardless of the model. But even then free action is found on PB washers just the same as bearings, especially after just a little bit of use. Maybe that's were the disconnect is. Spyderco is looking at the knives with the lockbar propped open and finds the bearings equivalent to PB washers?
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#53

Post by MacLaren »

curlyhairedboy wrote:Biggest issue I've seen with spyderco flippers is weaker than usual detents.

I know ZT is held up as the king of flipping action, but let's not forget that on a good portion of their models, if you grip it wrong, the detent makes it impossible to flip.

Point is, there's a spectrum of flipping action, and although my personal preference is a detent stiff enough to deploy in any position, a lot of others would not mind needing a wrist flip in exchange for ease of deployment in any grip...

I own quite a few ZT's and have yet to see one not flip, no matter which way I hold it.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#54

Post by Evil D »

I only have one ZT and it's assisted opening, I thought most of their flippers were. My 0303 absolutely will not flip with the spring bar removed no matter how loose the pivot is.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#55

Post by wrdwrght »

Why, oh, why has this official statement become a place to second-guess it? Talk about hijacking...
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#56

Post by MacLaren »

Evil D wrote:I only have one ZT and it's assisted opening, I thought most of their flippers were. My 0303 absolutely will not flip with the spring bar removed no matter how loose the pivot is.
Most of the Kershaw line is Speed Safe or assisted opening like you have on your ZT.
But, most of the ZT line up is their KVT system.
Which imo, is just phenomenal....
Ive never owned a ZT Speed Safe/assisted opening, so I cant really comment on that.
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wrdwrght
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#57

Post by wrdwrght »

Or a discussion of other brands...
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#58

Post by Bodog »

wrdwrght wrote:Or a discussion of other brands...

Because we like spyderco and real comparisons can help determine where the bar is set. Nothing seems disrespectful and its on topic and spyderco can see what their customers are wanting and is available at certain price points.

Without a doubt most of the flipper designs spyderco has produced are very good. The advocate I haven't handled but it looks outstanding. The mantra is stellar. I've been close to pulling the trigger several times on a domino. Was really close to a nirvana. Each time, with the exception if the mantra, it was always a no because of the bearing action I've felt on spyderco's knives. The mantra I said screw it and pulled the trigger anyway and it bit me in the butt.

That's why I care even a little. Some of the best designs spyderco is producing right now have bearings and they suck. I also know that other companies are knocking that aspect out of the park. I really just want spyderco to get that right so I can buy some of the designs I've been wanting for awhile. Call me selfish. I'm not alone.

The advocate and mantra both. If they were fixed and had action like ZT knives I'd be one of the biggest pushers of those knives. As it stands their PB washer knives are great, I just need to be a little pickier because the higher end models don't really use them often at this point.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#59

Post by paladin »

Bodog wrote:
dplafoll wrote:
Bodog wrote:I was a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman for a bit. It sucked so I moved on.
Was uh.... was that on purpose? :p

I wish I was that clever...

But seriously, I couldn't ever sell cars for a living. Selling my own car was bad enough. It drove me crazy.
....you did it again...this is classic! LMMFAO :p :p :p
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#60

Post by ZrowsN1s »

I'm just trying to help Sal and Spyderco know what I, as a fanboy ;) and customer would like to see from them. This seemed like a really good time to make my feelings known as this is when they are discussing the future of flippers at Spyderco.

No criticism here :D And no offense to anyone intended.
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