The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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Surfingringo
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#21

Post by Surfingringo »

It's hard to imagine a knife being much smoother than a sage 3...it runs on washers no? Even my recent paramilitarys are crazy smooth with no blade play. Spyderco is really good at getting great action out of washers.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#22

Post by bearfacedkiller »

Pretty much all my Golden and Taichung folders and some of my Japanese folders are smooth as glass. I own a lot of knives but only own one knife on bearings and I bought it just to see what all the fuss was about. It is a very, very smooth knife but I am a keep it simple kind of guy and just see bearings as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. It is no smoother than either of my Bradley Folders.

I am gonna sound like a crotchety old man but here goes; bearing are for kids and there pocket jewelry and fidget toys. :mad: :o I have been saying this since long before any of this bearing drama even started. Knives as tools don't need bearings IMO. :eek: To be honest, I love and am continually impressed with the smoothness of the Moki knives and many newer to Spyderco may not know this but they didn't even have washers. They had polished tangs and polished liners, that is it. Whoa!!! I like that the NativeLW lacks washers because, again, I am a keep it simple kind of guy. One less thing to go wrong.

I have zero interest in bearings and hope that it is just a fad. Sadly, from what I see online, this is unlikely... :D
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#23

Post by Ferris Wheels »

I agree that Spyderco's knives running on washers cause me no issue and run extremely smooth. In fact I can't think of a single Spyderco in my collection that isn't smooth though some didn't start out that way between gritty pivots and some needing a break in period. I agree with a lot of the statements in this thread that bearings are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The fact of the matter is that bearing flippers have become an industry standard and something a modern knife maker must include in their catalog or risk losing sales to the competition.

The problem that does exist though is that Spyderco is part of an industry that requires continual innovation or you get left behind and eventually get run out of business. Looking at the bearing issue from Spyderco's shoes, all their major competitors bring flippers to market running on bearings and their customers expect the same or will consider jumping ship to another brand to ride the wave of the latest and greatest. While we may or may not agree with the newest trends and innovations in the knife industry, I for one support Spyderco striving to stay current, innovative, profitable and successful.

I think something we often lose sight of on this forum is that we are just a very, very small segment of the Spyderco customer base. We may be the most loyal, most vocal, more educated then most of their customer base and die hard followers but we alone cannot sustain Spyderco through our purchases.

Thank you Spyderco for recognizing an issue, conducting your own research, acknowledging that a problem does exist and stepping up to the plate to resolve the problem and make your customers whole.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#24

Post by roger-roger »

I place the user serviceable Sebenza as the ideal, and the three Paramilitary 2 I used to have as a functionally good higher production approach in that regard. When looking at the checks and balances of features when looking for a knife, I'm going to have to place a ball bearing system in the no-go column.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#25

Post by JRinFL »

Another data point for Spyderco to process. My two Spyderco flippers (Dice & Domino) don't flip as well as my two ZTs (801 & 450). The Spydercos feel like they are running on gummy washers compared to the ZTs, whose action is superlative. There is such a wide difference that I have stopped considering any Spyderco flipper knives for now.
You can hardly call me anti-Spyderco, not with around 40 and a few on the way. I just want Spyderco to produce the best, not just OK. I know at least Sal appreciates honest feed back.
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Mic1
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#26

Post by Mic1 »

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First let me say I am a huge Gayle Bradley fan not only does he make great knives he is also a really interesting and great guy. I have a lot of customs from him and all the spyderco folders as well. I really like my advocate as well Spyderco did a great job it is as good and in some ways better than even the custom version. In my opinion it is the best Spyderco to date in regards to fit and finish. Honestly if you don't have one you should! If you cant afford one of the custom ones again you should get an Advocate its so close to the original and in some respects even better.

As for the washers, bearings etc. I think a better finish on the tang at least, would help for starters. I am not having any issues yet with my Advocate but I can see why some are. I just took mine apart for the first time because of all the hubbub on here. I just had to see for myself what was going on and I can compare it to the custom version as well.

My washers on the advocate are concave. The bearings have run a track into them and it is showing on the back side of the washers. There is even a faint track in the scales. I received this about a week ago from Knife center. I have maybe flipped it 200 300 times just messing with it and using it. I have not tightened it or taken it apart till today. I did spray some silicone spray in it and on the blade.

In the pictures you will see the advocate bearings washers and scales. I have also included the bearings from my custom. Here is my 2 cents and in no way am I an engineer, rocket scientist or as some of you so kindly point out an English teacher.

The caged bearings from the custom are in a steel housing that allows the bearings to cut only so deep into the Ti scales before the steel stops them effectively cutting its own bearing race track. Once broken in it will never change. The Advocate bearings will just keep cutting till they stop making contact with the blade or scales. They just keep going the more you tighten the more they will just keep wearing what ever surface is not much much harder than they are. They also do not move nearly as freely as the caged pair from my custom when rolled on my desk with my finger even leading me to believe some are not moving at all.

Again I am having no problems with my advocate and really like it in some ways even better than my customs. These are just my observations after having both knives open and using them.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#27

Post by ZrowsN1s »

I'm glad to read I'm not the only person who owns washer flippers AND bearing flippers, and prefers the washers. I thought it was just me :o
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#28

Post by FCM415 »

*Enters Thread*

I'm here now so punch me instead. :p
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#29

Post by Bodog »

TazKristi wrote:
Bodog wrote:I know and they know other people have problems unless they're saying that these other reports are fabrications. Other people HAVE had issues across the board with bearing pivots regardless of model and its always the same complaint and its usually the same thing. Disappointing action and not much else. People don't normally bring it up here or on BF because so many people attack them and tell them they're wrong or whatever and spyderco loses a customer. Especially when it's known that Spyderco is happy with the action.

I'm not crapping on spyderco. They're great. I just don't see why they're so bent on defending what is obviously a lackluster feature.
Bodog:
We're not saying those reports are fabrications - we just can't base decisions on reports posted on the internet. I can find all sorts of things through Google searches. It doesn't mean the resulting information is complete or accurate. It's kind of like you saying you don't care about flippers or "that's all I have to say about that" but your posts demonstrate something very different.

We can't make decisions about potential or actual issues based on posts on the internet. We absolutely listen to those and they carry some weight in our decisions but at the end of the day, we have to rely on research and evaluation of the knives themselves - meaning what we have here and what is sent into W&R for evaluation.

Kristi

Have you ever gone to a restaurant and gotten subpar food that you didn't want to finish but wasn't bad enough to send back? It made you really not want to be a repeat customer. Now you have your regulars that accept the food for what it is, too. But then those customers who were dissatisfied go online and post some less than stellar reviews. The service was good, the atmosphere nice, the drinks were great, but man, the steak sucked for the money and other restaurants are getting right at that price. Then the owner or manager being super nice comes online and says he doesnt see a problem because he never gets any food sent back to the kitchen therefore everything, to him, is ok. Well, thats fine that the chef never sees any complaints, but that doesn't mean that customers are ok with what they were served and that does mean that those dissatisfied people will eat someplace else if they're seeking a steak. But man, that restaurant's hamburgers are great and the people who have gotten bad steaks say if you're looking for a consistently great steak, try another restaurant, but if you want a great burger, eat here. The owner doesn't seem to mind the bad steak and there are plenty of people who say the steak is good enough but there aren't many who will say spyderco's steak is better than most other restaurants serving steak. There are a LOT of people who say the burgers are great. So stick with the burgers or serve better steaks, either one. But it makes you as a company lose customers when they come in looking for a great steak and get served a piece of charcoal when they should've ordered the burger because steaks shouldn't be on the menu. Not until they can compete with others in the same price range. For sure don't tell people that got a bad new York strip that only the ribeyes have had problems and even then it was only a few picky customers that caused an issue.

I will say that I sent a bad steak back and received a great burger and everyone was nice about it. One of the better burgers I've had too.

For those who can't understand metaphors PB washers are the burgers and ball bearing pivots are the steaks.


If honest and genuine feedback from the real world isn't welcome nor particularly helpful then tell us now and please stop the mule team project. It'll save us a lot of time. I'm sure most of us thought spyderco was one of the few companies who understood that how things operate in a controlled and sterile environment is different than in the real world. And I'm sure most of us thought that real world feedback was the backbone of spyderco's endeavors.

If we are supposed to be blind monkeys accepting anything thrown at us then tell us now so that we can stop caring about trying to speak up and making you better than your competitors when the rubber meets the road. You're wrong on this one spyderco. I say that with the utmost respect for Sal and Michael and Eric and everyone else at spyderco.
Last edited by Bodog on Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#30

Post by JRinFL »

Bodog wrote: ...
For those who can't understand metaphors PB washers are the burgers and ball bearing pivots are the steaks.
If proper bearings would have been used, this whole issue would be moot, however I will support whatever decision improves the product, be it washers or good bearings.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#31

Post by Bodog »

JRinFL wrote:
Bodog wrote: ...
For those who can't understand metaphors PB washers are the burgers and ball bearing pivots are the steaks.
If proper bearings would have been used, this whole issue would be moot, however I will support whatever decision improves the product, be it washers or good bearings.
Pretty much agree
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#32

Post by fanglekai »

I sent my Domino in because it wasn't smooth after years of use. I sent it in and W&R fixed it up. After using it for a while, it's gone back to having that "vertical wobble" where if I open it slowly via the Spyderhole I can see, hear, and feel a small wobbling movement in the blade when I move it a small distance along its arc of travel. This isn't noticeable if I use the flipper or open the blade fully in a continuous motion. It can be noticed only when moving the blade a small distance. My Spydercos with washers don't exhibit this behavior, of course. It's mildly annoying but the knife is fully functional. Not sure if this is something that Spyderco would want to look at or not.

I'll probably pick up an Advocate in a couple months. The design is cool and I like my GB1 a lot so it'll probably get a lot of pocket time.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#33

Post by hovan2yourknives »

Michael Janich wrote:To All Spyderco Enthusiasts:

The issues that have come to our attention have occurred primarily after customers have adjusted the tension of their pivot pin screws.

Respectfully,

Mike
Perhaps the reason for this is that the customers who sent these knives back were having issues from the get go and tried to "correct" the problem before they sent them in? This is what I did with my Advocate, which is currently with W&R, and I thought that it would be as simple as taking the knife apart, cleaning out the pivot assembly, re-lubricanting it and finally reassembling the knife while SLOWLY adjusting the torque on the pivot until there's no blade play. I've done this "adjustment" to some of my older knives and never had any major complications with my knives that are manufactured by long-standing reputable companies.

I just wanted to share my experience and hope that I didn't write anything that would tick anyone off! I've already had a few conversations with a W&R representative...my interactions with her have been very pleasant and she was extremely understanding and helpful throughout the whole process. I was given a few options and have chosen to wait for the fix before I'm sent a replacement. It's reasons such as these that I continue to find ways to justify buying a new Spyderco every 4 weeks or so :)

Thank you Spyderco for all of your efforts, improvements and most of all your unique designs and innovation! It must be challenging to keep all that awesomeness up while listening to nutty fans like myself and, at the same time, trying to draw something useful out of our banter.

I'm really curious to see what you guys do with the new and improved Advocate! Thanks again...

All the best!
Hovan
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sal
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#34

Post by sal »

As it turns out, in our study of the situation, we decided that there were some issues (thin washers, etc) that would be a more complicated fix. We suspended production on all of our flippers, and we have stopped shipping Advocates until we can sort it out,. Mike has made announcements to that subject. Eric is currently meeting with the maker to discuss possible solutions for now and moving forward.

We thank all of you for your information regarding the issue. We also thank you for all of the kind words about us and out company. It's appreciated. As Mike mentioned, if you are having a problem with one of our knives, you can contact us.

sal
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#35

Post by paladin »

GB1...best **** folder for the money on the planet.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#36

Post by fanglekai »

I also wanted to mention that it's very nice to see a company respond to feedback in a constructive manner. Spyderco will continue to be my company of choice for modern style folders.
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#37

Post by Surfingringo »

fanglekai wrote:I also wanted to mention that it's very nice to see a company respond to feedback in a constructive manner. Spyderco will continue to be my company of choice for modern style folders.
+1
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#38

Post by anagarika »

Another input on bodog's steak sample are people like me, bloke, etc. that live far from US. What we get is what we get. If it breaks, some might worth sending back (something like Nirvana price), some just not worth it (shipping, customs, etc).

My point is that having the design AND execution as robust as necessary will prevent a 'steak not so good to be finished but not so bad to be sent back' incident that might turn customer away.
Sometimes the kitchen is too far away it's moot ;)

I still view Spyderco on the top about caring and understanding the source of business: ELU. This thread and allowing good & bad feedback is proof of that.

Bodog is right on one thing: not providing true feedback will not help Spyderco keep being ahead. There're some of his statement that I disagree with (the 'tail' comment), but throwing out him completely won't work either. His contributions outweigh his downside I think.

Let's wait for longer term solution. Changes are not instant. In any company. I hope it's resolved. If ZT can do it (don't own any, too expensive & I don't like frame lock/liner lock), it means the design & execution is possible, and Spyderco can do it too (or even better).

PS: @paladin, YES about GB1 ;) the only liner lock I can tolerate...
Chris :spyder:
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#39

Post by SolidState »

My smoothest flipper is an Introvert, and it has no bearings. :cool:
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Surfingringo
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Re: The Advocate - An Official Statement from Spyderco

#40

Post by Surfingringo »

SolidState wrote:My smoothest flipper is an Introvert, and it has no bearings. :cool:
The few introverts I've handled have indeed been quite smooth.
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