Red Loctite - An Official Statement from Spyderco

[JRinFL]

Thank you Spyderco.

[Eli Chaps]

First, probably should make this a sticky thread as I'm sure it will be getting referenced for some time.

Second, wow. I've been doing forums for a loooong time and every once in a while I'm reminded of the power they can wield. That is, with the caveat, with a company that cares.

I stayed out of this because as much as so many folks will never accept it, only a small margin of people care about this. And about half of the ones who do, only care because they read on the internet that they should care. The Loctite or warranty issue will never truly affect a lot of of the people who post about it but they get caught up in the discussion. I suspect the overwhelming majority of folding knife buyers will never take their knives apart. I believe the overwhelming majority of folding knife buyers don't even sharpen their knives let alone disassemble them. I guess you could make an argument that Spydercos are slightly higher-end and thereby bring about a more discerning owner but I still highly doubt that. Spyderco doesn't make their living off of forum participants. Most buyers will never even know these are supposedly an issue let alone let it affect their buying preference.

I work in manufacturing and one thing I was wondering about through this whole ordeal was what are they seeing for returns? We can all stand around and stamp our keyboard feet for whatever side we decide land on, but the company's data will tell the tale. While Mr. Janich has essentially said their information said the locker type was irrelevant, I'd guess that also means they get so few returns for this issue that it doesn't matter either way, so given all the hub bub, screw it, we'll change to settle things down.

Now, keep in mind, I have no idea why a knife needs red Loctite as I've been holding old guns together with fingernail polish for decades. But, I don't build knives and well, whatever. I encounter red and don't think it is needed, I can clean it off and move on. I do that taking full responsibility for deviating from that particular manufacture's druthers. If I don't want to do that, it's on me to decide. If you're gonna take a knife apart and you can't deal with red Loctite, well...

My point is, in the grand scheme of things, I doubt this "issue" would've had much impact on Spyderco's annual sales. But, they saw that the enthusiast camp was concerned and they did the diligence to consider the cause and effect and found a solution.

They could have easily said they would print in their box pamphlet that "high strength thread locker may have been used in this knife...' or something similar.

To me, this was never an issue. The Loctite or the warranty deal. Whatever. Only guys on these forums think this is an issue and they (we) are the minority of knife buyers.

So because of that, and because Sal himself jumped in, all this has done for me has reinforce my dedication to the company. For me, Spyderco remains the best, mass production folding knife company on the planet. I thought that before this all came up and think the same today.

[FCM415]

We win = Spyderco wins = We win

It's an endless cycle of winning.

[Bodog]

First, probably should make this a sticky thread as I'm sure it will be getting referenced for some time.

Second, wow. I've been doing forums for a loooong time and every once in a while I'm reminded of the power they can wield. That is, with the caveat, with a company that cares.

I stayed out of this because as much as so many folks will never accept it, only a small margin of people care about this. And about half of the ones who do, only care because they read on the internet that they should care. The Loctite or warranty issue will never truly affect a lot of of the people who post about it but they get caught up in the discussion. I suspect the overwhelming majority of folding knife buyers will never take their knives apart. I believe the overwhelming majority of folding knife buyers don't even sharpen their knives let alone disassemble them. I guess you could make an argument that Spydercos are slightly higher-end and thereby bring about a more discerning owner but I still highly doubt that. Spyderco doesn't make their living off of forum participants. Most buyers will never even know these are supposedly an issue let alone let it affect their buying preference.

I work in manufacturing and one thing I was wondering about through this whole ordeal was what are they seeing for returns? We can all stand around and stamp our keyboard feet for whatever side we decide land on, but the company's data will tell the tale. While Mr. Janich has essentially said their information said the locker type was irrelevant, I'd guess that also means they get so few returns for this issue that it doesn't matter either way, so given all the hub bub, screw it, we'll change to settle things down.

Now, keep in mind, I have no idea why a knife needs red Loctite as I've been holding old guns together with fingernail polish for decades. But, I don't build knives and well, whatever. I encounter red and don't think it is needed, I can clean it off and move on. I do that taking full responsibility for deviating from that particular manufacture's druthers. If I don't want to do that, it's on me to decide. If you're gonna take a knife apart and you can't deal with red Loctite, well...

My point is, in the grand scheme of things, I doubt this "issue" would've had much impact on Spyderco's annual sales. But, they saw that the enthusiast camp was concerned and they did the diligence to consider the cause and effect and found a solution.

They could have easily said they would print in their box pamphlet that "high strength thread locker may have been used in this knife...' or something similar.

To me, this was never an issue. The Loctite or the warranty deal. Whatever. Only guys on these forums think this is an issue and they (we) are the minority of knife buyers.

So because of that, and because Sal himself jumped in, all this has done for me has reinforce my dedication to the company. For me, Spyderco remains the best, mass production folding knife company on the planet. I thought that before this all came up and think the same today.

Great post. I think it's probably very close to the truth with almost everything said. Truthfully they could probably do the red loctite on everything priced lower than their pm2 line and 99% wouldn't know nor care. It's really when you start getting into the higher priced knives that reasonable people find non-disposable that they want to be responsible and properly maintain their tools and also geek out about why they spent more money on that knife than an Ontario Rat

[Timberline]

Hi All

First post, been lurking but joined specifically to respond to this thread.

What a great response by a great company. Whether or not I take my knives apart, I'm really impressed by the connection to & dedication to their customers that Spyderco demonstrated here. I just got two new Spydercos in the mail this week, a blurple PM2 & a Sage 5. I can see why the PM2 is so popular, but the Sage 5 is really the one I love best, it just really fits my hand like it was built just for me. I also have a Spyderco from about 20 years ago, backlock with stainless steel/Kraton scales, combo blade. I'll post a pic on a different thread, would like help identifying it.

Anyway, kudos to Spyderco for their response. Whether or not the red loctite issue is relevant to me, they've earned my business. Now just have to decide which one is next.

[Bodog]

We win = Spyderco wins = We win

It's an endless cycle of winning.

Don't know if a picture of Charlie Sheen or Donald Trump should be posted...

[sal]

Thanx Mike, and thanx for the comments from all.

I'd also like to welcome; Karahdin, Geardupdad, Carlito, Dezoe, Nyy1176, Cabbiechad and Timberline.

sal

[timlara]

Thanks Sal and Mike!

I don't think these new policies could be any better without charging a whole lot more for the products like some competitors do, which I don't think would be a worthwhile tradeoff. I'm glad that I can actually afford just about any model Spyderco makes and buy with confidence that they'll make it right if I happen to get a dud. I think the company has done a pretty good job of hitting that sweet spot between making high enough quality products that problems are rare, but still keeping prices somewhat reasonable.

[JohnyKwst]

This is great news. Thank you Spyderco!

[buccilli15]

Awesome! Thanks, Spyderco!

[anagarika]

Is this a retroactive policy change that would include old models under the new warranty umbrella...like, say, a Kukri or Barong?

And would stripped pivot screws and frame screws on the older, discontinued models be covered effective today?

Not Sal or Mike, but my understanding the warranty is that they will as long as the parts are available. Otherwise the usual Store Credit or returning it as is.

[Michael Janich]

Is this a retroactive policy change that would include old models under the new warranty umbrella...like, say, a Kukri or Barong?

And would stripped pivot screws and frame screws on the older, discontinued models be covered effective today?

Not Sal or Mike, but my understanding the warranty is that they will as long as the parts are available. Otherwise the usual Store Credit or returning it as is.

Our warranty applies to all models we've ever made. Yes, our ability to repair knives is limited by the availability of parts for that specific model. When something is discontinued, we do squirrel away a supply of parts for that model and support it as long as we can. When the parts are gone, if your knife fails due to materials or workmanship, we credit you the value of the knife toward another purchase.

Stay safe,

Mike

[z4vdBt]

Thanks Spyderco! Like my pre-lock J-frames, I will always cherish my pre-medium-strength Loctite Goldens.

[Michael Janich]

Wow. Thank you MJ for taking the time to address us so thoroughly, and of course to the entire crew for addressing the issue itself. Who's better than you guys?!

Though as we are talking about user-created damage, I thought one thing should probably be made overly clear because just based on the sheer number of owners, you know it's going to happen.

How to Remove Stubborn Screws from a Knife

According to the manufacturers of Loctite 263, the red Loctite used on Spyderco’s US-made knives, screws treated with it can be removed by applying heat. However, its specifications state that a temperature of more than 360 degrees Fahrenheit must be reached for it to soften. Such temperatures could easily damage the scales and other components of your knife. Instead, we recommend the following process:

1) Ensure that you have the proper size Torx® driver for your screws and that the driver head is in good condition. A single-piece, screwdriver-style driver works best.
2) Place your knife on a workbench or other hard surface. Use a paper towel or rag to protect the handle from scratches.
3) Insert the tip of the Torx driver into the screw head and ensure that it fits properly.
4) Tap the handle of the driver several times with a hammer to “shock” the screw and break the Loctite bond.
5) Maintain a firm, constant, downward pressure on the Torx driver as you rotate it to remove the screw.
6) If this method is not successful on the first try, repeat as necessary or return your knife to Spyderco with $5.00 for return shipping. We will loosen your knife’s screws upon request.

This does mean to tap DOWNWARD on the end of the handle, correct? Not sideways in a turning motion, as if to create your own little impact driver. I can see it now, especially for people who have L-shaped Torx wrenches like me where it's even easier to misconstrue the meaning of that instruction and very quickly and efficiently strip the head, especially with a low quality bit.

Hey, PayneTrain:

Please note that I recommended a "single-piece, screwdriver-style driver." Folding, multiple-driver tools and L-shaped tools are not preferred because, yes, you do want to tap the end of the tool with a downward stroke of the hammer to transfer force vertically through the length of the tool into the head of the screw. You are not trying to turn the tool with strikes from the hammer.

Thanks,

Mike

[Michael Janich]

Truth be told, our Warranty Repair technicians receive knives that have been disassembled all the time. In most cases, the knives have been reassembled with proper attention to detail so as not to compromise the proper mechanical function of the knife. If that's the case and one of the parts fails because of a defect in materials or workmanship, they exercise their discretion to repair or replace it at no charge as if the warranty were still in full force. Because the warranty is technically void, they are not OBLIGATED to honor it, but CHOOSE to.

Does the warranty remain in effect or are you choosing to honor it?

Please note that I purposely used the word "CHOOSE" and put it in all caps to emphasize it.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Michael Janich]

It's obvious where they stand now and its clear they will honor the warranty as it's stood for a long time and they're wiping away all of the stuff that's clearly been expressed or implied for as long as I've been watching knife forums. All of the inaccurate information passed around and allowed by spyderco reps for whatever reason was just stopped. That's good. Anyone that's followed Spyderco for any length of time knows that the reps pushed the idea that the stated policy was not going to be followed as a matter of policy but more as a favor. People who knew better knew that was bs didn't question it that much because the written policy overrides written statements by reps over the years.

Regardless, it's crystal clear now and I'm sure a couple of spyderco's reps are tucking their tails a little bit because what they said was clearly wrong. It doesn't matter in the slightest. The wrong has been made right and us spyderco fans can rest easy knowing our favorite large scale maker listens, clarifies, and rights wrongs. Most of us knew that anyway but were waiting for spyderco to reinforce it.

Let them save some face, it's no skin off any of our backs. It's not the first nor probably the last that Kristi or Charlynn or whoever will take a stance that Sal repudiates. Look at the bearing issue. Totally different stances between W/R and Sal's public statements.


Now with this clarified as soon as the bearing issue is fixed I'll be the first in line for an advocate 2. Or at least I hope they differentiate between the first run and subsequent runs. I'm sure there don't be a lot buying the first run if the second run has better action.

Bodog:

For the record, nobody is tucking their tails around here. We work very hard to serve our customers and uphold the standards of integrity that Sal, Gail, and Eric have established for the company. We also work hard to follow their lead when it comes to applying the letter of Spyderco's policies to the shades of gray of the real world.

We are extremely pleased that our announcement and policy change has been well received by the vast majority of our customers and forumites. We also realize that some people will invariably remain bitter and critical no matter what we do. That just makes us appreciate the good folks even more...

Stay safe,

Mike

[Bodog]

It's obvious where they stand now and its clear they will honor the warranty as it's stood for a long time and they're wiping away all of the stuff that's clearly been expressed or implied for as long as I've been watching knife forums. All of the inaccurate information passed around and allowed by spyderco reps for whatever reason was just stopped. That's good. Anyone that's followed Spyderco for any length of time knows that the reps pushed the idea that the stated policy was not going to be followed as a matter of policy but more as a favor. People who knew better knew that was bs didn't question it that much because the written policy overrides written statements by reps over the years.

Regardless, it's crystal clear now and I'm sure a couple of spyderco's reps are tucking their tails a little bit because what they said was clearly wrong. It doesn't matter in the slightest. The wrong has been made right and us spyderco fans can rest easy knowing our favorite large scale maker listens, clarifies, and rights wrongs. Most of us knew that anyway but were waiting for spyderco to reinforce it.

Let them save some face, it's no skin off any of our backs. It's not the first nor probably the last that Kristi or Charlynn or whoever will take a stance that Sal repudiates. Look at the bearing issue. Totally different stances between W/R and Sal's public statements.


Now with this clarified as soon as the bearing issue is fixed I'll be the first in line for an advocate 2. Or at least I hope they differentiate between the first run and subsequent runs. I'm sure there don't be a lot buying the first run if the second run has better action.

Bodog:

For the record, nobody is tucking their tails around here. We work very hard to serve our customers and uphold the standards of integrity that Sal, Gail, and Eric have established for the company. We also work hard to follow their lead when it comes to applying the letter of Spyderco's policies to the shades of gray of the real world.

We are extremely pleased that our announcement and policy change has been well received by the vast majority of our customers and forumites. We also realize that some people will invariably remain bitter and critical no matter what we do. That just makes us appreciate the good folks even more...

Stay safe,

Mike

I'm not bitter but I am a customer who spends good money with spyderco and their dealers and am one of the ones who was definitely critical of how the warranty policy was implied to be a favor rather than a matter of hard policy.


I appreciate how all of you are so helpful and was trying to get guys to lay off of the decision of spyderco reps to either directly or indirectly say that the warranty as written was not a hard rule but rather a matter of doing us customers a favor. I've been talking about this for at least a year and I know for a fact in several forums and social media outlets guys have repeatedly questioned the policy and statements from spyderco and if anyone ever got a direct statement from spyderco it was always that the written policy was incorrect. Of course most others would jump on anyone who would further question it and tell them that any disassembly was going to surely void the warranty. Spyderco, until yesterday, never corrected that and made people believe it was only by the good graces of people at spyderco that warranty work would still be performed after disassembly. I've always stood up for spyderco and tried to correct that and stated what the written policy said and its even gone so far as to create arguments. Spyderco's reps never once stood up and said, no, that's not correct. Until yesterday.

So yes, I'm sure that all of the reps that gave misinformation (not misinterpreted by knife buyers) and led people to think that spyderco's warranty was something other than it was should be saying sorry. And the only reason the word "misinterpretation" should be used is when the reps who themselves misinterpreted the written warranty policy admit that they misinterpreted the written policy when telling people about warranty work after disassembly being a favor rather than a service policy written and in place at the time of purchase.

No one of us customers should demand an apology or whatever but if it's stood for years that spyderco's reps have repeatedly stated the company may not honor it's warranty policy then yeah, we use a term in my profession called "brushing out." Laying the blame on customers for "misinterpreting" the warranty rather than grabbing the bull by the horns and saying "we reps at spyderco were protecting the company from people who were doing stupid things with their knives and we led people to believe that our written policy was something other than as written. We are going on record and saying that won't be the case anymore" is brushing out.

And I don't care about the brush out. I care that it's been made right. So that matter is now a non-issue to me and making things right is a huge factor. That's the bottom line for me and people focusing on the other stuff seems silly to me. Most of us are simply happy with the decision of spyderco to remove all of the false beliefs associated with your warranty policy regardless of who started those false beliefs.


http://jaylemming-author.com/2015/10/31 ... -tracking/

[wrdwrght]

Gads, Bodog. We get that you're instrumental in putting Spyderco on the right path. Give it a rest!

[mrtodd777]

Dude, just let it go..

horse 2 by Todd Crawford, on Flickr

[ejames13]

Truth be told, our Warranty Repair technicians receive knives that have been disassembled all the time. In most cases, the knives have been reassembled with proper attention to detail so as not to compromise the proper mechanical function of the knife. If that's the case and one of the parts fails because of a defect in materials or workmanship, they exercise their discretion to repair or replace it at no charge as if the warranty were still in full force. Because the warranty is technically void, they are not OBLIGATED to honor it, but CHOOSE to.

Does the warranty remain in effect or are you choosing to honor it?

Please note that I purposely used the word "CHOOSE" and put it in all caps to emphasize it.

Stay safe,

Mike

Hi Michael, not trying to beat a dead horse, but the post quoted above seems to directly contradict your original post. You said in the original, "If a customer disassembles one of our knives and reassembles properly so its adjustment and operation are consistent with original factory specifications, the knife’s warranty remains in effect." Yet in the post quoted above, you say the warranty is technically void if the knife is disassembled (even if it was reassembled properly) and Spyderco techs have the option to choose whether or not to repair it free of charge.

So which is it? Does disassembly void the warranty or not? If it does not, then why do the techs have the choice as to whether or not they honor it?