Gayle Bradley Advocate First Impressions?

[ABX2011]

I like both flat and hollow grinds. I will agree that a full flat grind gives up some aesthetic appeal. With the Advocate you get a nearly full height flat grind. You get the performance of a full height grind with the aesthetic appeal of contrasting bevels. Same thing with the Junction. I wouldn't mind if every full flat grind looked like the Advocate or Junction.
If I was choosing I would have given the Advocate a hollow grind just like the Gayle Bradley 1 and 2.

[vivi]

Knives are supposed to inspire and be aesthetically pleasing like artwork. Flat ground knives are utilitarian and quite boring without any true character. Flats are for the most part, accepted simply because that is all that is being offered and they are cheaper to produce. The sheep will trot along with the flock, the wolves will standby watching and waiting.

Preferring one grind over another is no reason to insult a large percentage of Spydercos customer base.

Many of us buy knives solely as users and have no interest in collecting or aesthetics. I've never used a grind that cut better than a full flat grind, and given the choice I will always buy FFG over any sort of hollow or saber grind.

I buy Spyderco because they prioritize function over appearance.

One example is how few bead blasted knives they've released. Bead blasted blades look good to some people, but they sacrifice corrosion resistance for that look. It might not matter to you, but for me its the difference between having a blade rust after a single day of carry VS never having it rust.

Another example is the PAra 2. Many people complain about the blade to handle ratio. I love it. I don't want a handle too small to get a good grip on just to please some peoples idea of aesthetics. I want a handle that fits my man hands.

Knives are meant to be artistic....I could have the largest collection of box cutters.....

I've never used a box cutter with the ergonomics or edge retention of my flat ground Military

Some of us view knives as tools. To us, knives are meant to be artistic as much as a hammer is.

Show me a Military, PM2, Manix2, Manix2 XL, Native, Mantra, Dice, Domino, Caly, or a Cat that is Hollow or Saber ground.

Ok.

I think you're missing the point when I state that a knife must be artistic.

Here's an example. ( Top of Pic )The Native CP41through its original versions from the BRK, Gin1, and a few others had the saber grind which gave a very nice look to it. It's blade was interesting and it was appreciated. The current version ( Bottom of Pic ) now has g10 scales, better steel, no more pinned construction now with torx screws and has many improvements that are all extremely welcomed and great but it has lost the blade geometry of the saber grind in favor of flat. This distracts from all of the improvements, they change to flat grind made it just another leaf blade. This is just an example of a subtle difference that makes the term artistic relevant when discussing a knife.

The new Native cuts better than the old Native. That's an improvement. That half height hollow grind might look better but its less functional. Its binds in cardboard and apples more than the full flat. I am very glad Spyderco prioritizes function over appearance, it is one of the things that sets them apart from the majority of knife companies out there.

[zeroed4x]

Many of us buy knives solely as users and have no interest in collecting or aesthetics. I've never used a grind that cut better than a full flat grind, and given the choice I will always buy FFG over any sort of hollow or saber grind.

I buy Spyderco because they prioritize function over appearance.

A knife can be both functional and aesthetically pleasing. This is why Spyderco became world famous. I watched it happen.
If you like FFG then that is all that you should own. I love mine, I have a gun safe full of them but that is not where it all started Spyderco and its not what drew me into collecting them.
I must have all of the options and that includes new knives with the saber and hollow ground blades like Spyderco made years ago that where both functional and aesthetically pleasing.

Some of us view knives as tools. To us, knives are meant to be artistic as much as a hammer is.

LOL You're a tool.... just kidding, had to poke fun when you opened yourself up for that friend.

Sorry but that is a really dumb statement. Of course we use knives as tools, we also want them to look a certain way and if they look like a can of cheese whiz and not something we like , we don't buy them.
So this means you do not care what your new Spyderco looks like ? It could look like 100% junk but as long as it cuts through news paper with out snagging its great right ? Sorry but that not how anyone in the real world looks at knives, guns, cars, girls or hammers, yes, hammers too.
The very first thing any human, even with a 1/2 h.p pull start chicken brain will do is visually acquire and then visually judge before we even attempt to physically examine "anything". It is undeniable 100% fact..... 1. look, 2. feel/touch/examine/qualify 3. establish need/ justify desire 4. Buy all versions so Sal can build a new house and vacation ( Sal we love you :-)

I'll personally notify Sal that none of us care what the Spyderco knives look like, we don't need any pictures on the website just the models and the specs...... sound kinda dumb?..... that because it would be.

You nor anyone else will ever win a debate with many of us who where buying Spyderco knives in the 80's, 90's, and currently, who purchased all the early designs and then purchased all of the modern designs, who like FFG but also like other blade geometry. You'd have better luck herding cats than to convince me or many others anything otherwise. Don't take it the wrong way, I'm simply going to fully agree to disagree with you.

The new Native cuts better than the old Native. That's an improvement. That half height hollow grind might look better but its less functional. Its binds in cardboard and apples more than the full flat. I am very glad Spyderco prioritizes function over appearance, it is one of the things that sets them apart from the majority of knife companies out there.

I agree that FFG is a great slicer, no doubt about it, you're correct.
I've owned many of the older versions of Spydies that were saber or hollow and are now only offered in FFG, trust me, the older knives cut just as well as any of the FFG's they just look better doing it. I know that an FFG is a great slicer but its not the only game in town. I can peal an apple with a Scandi, Convex, Saber, or any hollow ground, just as easily as an FFG. If you only own a few knives I can understand, maybe you have safety and security with only FFG blades, your o.k. with it, I'm o.k. with it..... I am bored with them and I think Sal should consider more designs that resemble the classic designs that sucked all that hard earned money out of my bank account for the last 30 plus years. The only knife so far that is flat ground, that has my full attention would be the Advocate. I'm most likely going to get one and that is somewhat due to limited choices and my discerning appetite when adding to my collection.

[harronek]

Only the second person to make it to my ignored list .

Ken

[murphjd25]

I really was going to order an Advocate until I opened this thread. JUST KIDDING, I'll still get one. So tired of all the negative **** on here. I don't think I'm the only one. Im traditional and open my knives with one or two hands, and depend on them for my job every single day. Spyderco didn't get into this business by making flippers, that's what ZT and other companies do best, not all of us like a blade to fly out in light Saber speed. All the kudos to Spyderco for trying flippers and I'm sure they do a great job, look who there working with..gayle bradley!! In a way Spyderco kind of saved my life..because now I'm buying knives instead of bags of drugs. I have a couple knives on the list before this but I defintly plan on making this my first spydie flipper and I am sure it will be all I expected and more!!

Edit:spelling

[toxophilus]

Hi,

Watched this video from Apostle P (Rob) describing in more detail washer/bearing issues that he & others have been encountering as the Advocate is being deployed/flipped more. As I stated earlier within the comments, mine wasn't nearly as worn as his is. He'll be placing a call into Spyderco to seek a resolution.

https://youtu.be/LG7Mq-X ... e=youtu.be

Thx, RSilva

[vilePossum]

To the original topic, I've had mine for a while now, and must say that FOR ME, it is just about ideal. Smooth opening, rock solid lock up, and I love the blade shape. Nice and slender in the pocket, and comfortable in my hand. The only thing that is yet to be determined, is the M4 steel. I've never had a blade in this steel before, so time will tell. For now, it is definitely one of my favorite designs, and has become my main EDC.

I hope you will be as impressed by the steel as I was when I got my first knife in it.
True it is not stainless, but I never had an issue with that. Though I didn't use it for food prep. For me it was good to sharpen, held a working edge very well and stood up excellent to abuse like cutting old carpet to strips.
As for the whole bearing issue... I would say that we do not know enough about this at the moment, but right now this is a show stopper for me. Maybe it is because I would have to pay more than your retail price, but I am just not willing to put down 300$ for a knife like this.
And just to add, though I prefer washers, I don't detest bearings generally. There are plenty of well working examples of titanium handled bearing flippers out there.

[vilePossum]

And just to add, I would guess that Apostel p would not use such a wording if he didn't think it to be warranted in some way. So make of it what you will.

[vivi]

Only the second person to make it to my ignored list .

Ken

First for me.

Contrary opinions are fun, I like looking into the mind of someone who thinks differently. Calling people names and posting paragraphs devoid of logic...yeah, that's not what I come here for.

[ABX2011]

Glad Rob is spearheading this.

[Bodog]

Hi,

Watched this video from Apostle P (Rob) describing in more detail washer/bearing issues that he & others have been encountering as the Advocate is being deployed/flipped more. As I stated earlier within the comments, mine wasn't nearly as worn as his is. He'll be placing a call into Spyderco to seek a resolution.

https://youtu.be/LG7Mq-X ... e=youtu.be

Thx, RSilva

Hopefully Sal sees this and comments.

Literally everything he (ApostleP) said about the bearing system to the warranty to the utility of the other spyderco knives is exactly how I feel and what I've tried to convey here on this forum over this exact issue.

As a matter of fact, here's the Mantra thread where people were having issues with these same bearings.

//forum.spyderco.com/viewto ... s&start=20

Whatever Spyderco does to fix these issues with these knives, if anything, they need to scrap those bearings being used in Taiwan and chalk them up to a loss and use something considerably better or they'll start losing customers quickly. From having no real solution to the problem to voiding warranties just to see if there is a problem to begin with, there's a deep problem. People will start seeing these and want to inspect and will find they have no solution because of the design and the voided warranty. Nothing will turn customers away faster, especially when other companies are absolutely fine with you taking the knife apart as long as your tinkering doesn't cause the warranty repair.

[MacLaren]

Hi,

Watched this video from Apostle P (Rob) describing in more detail washer/bearing issues that he & others have been encountering as the Advocate is being deployed/flipped more. As I stated earlier within the comments, mine wasn't nearly as worn as his is. He'll be placing a call into Spyderco to seek a resolution.

https://youtu.be/LG7Mq-X ... e=youtu.be

Thx, RSilva

Literally everything he said from the bearing system to the warranty to the utility of the other spyderco knives is exactly how I feel and what I've tried to convey here on this forum. Hopefully Sal sees this.

And you did man. I know where your coming from. Although I do not have an Advocate, I did have trouble with my Satin Southard. Didn't have any trouble with the Black Southard or the Domino however. But then again I sold the Black Southard (mistake) and prolly haven't used the Domino enough to make a determination on its performance.
But, I'd bet money that Sal and Spyderco will address and fix the problems.

[fellyjr]

I'm holding off on buying one until this issue is resolved. I'm sure Sal will chime in at some point.

[timlara]

As purely constructive criticism and in hope for some CQI at some point, I have to agree that Spyderco's bearing implementations just aren't up to snuff with the rest of the quality on their knives. The ergos, the steel, the materials, and even small details like the clips are almost always excellent on every model that comes out, but the captive bearings used just haven't impressed me so far. I just can't honestly say that any of the Spydie flippers I've handled have felt appreciably smoother than a good PM2, and in general, have felt less so, some much less so.

Since the flippers are pretty much the newest product category for Spyderco compared to all the other general aspects of non-flipper knives that they've been honing and refining for years, I think they definitely deserve a bit of a break to give them more time to experiment and improve. But at this point, as others have mentioned, I have to agree that the use of bearings seems a little more like a "me too" initiative (to be competitive) than a practical, functional necessity.

One other factor for me is that since Spyderco prefers that end users don't take apart their knives for maintenance, the added fragility of the bearings is a bit of a purchase liability since you'd either have to send the knife in for warranty work if a problem arises, or try to fix it yourself and risk voiding your warranty. Just by nature of the little moving parts in bearings, it is inevitable that at some point they'll need to be taken apart and cleaned, so it would be kind of a bummer to have to send in a knife for that work.

[Bodog]

As purely constructive criticism and in hope for some CQI at some point, I have to agree that Spyderco's bearing implementations just aren't up to snuff with the rest of the quality on their knives. The ergos, the steel, the materials, and even small details like the clips are almost always excellent on every model that comes out, but the captive bearings used just haven't impressed me so far. I just can't honestly say that any of the Spydie flippers I've handled have felt appreciably smoother than a good PM2, and in general, have felt less so, some much less so.

Since the flippers are pretty much the newest product category for Spyderco compared to all the other general aspects of non-flipper knives that they've been honing and refining for years, I think they definitely deserve a bit of a break to give them more time to experiment and improve. But at this point, as others have mentioned, I have to agree that the use of bearings seems a little more like a "me too" initiative (to be competitive) than a practical, functional necessity.

One other factor for me is that since Spyderco prefers that end users don't take apart their knives for maintenance, the added fragility of the bearings is a bit of a purchase liability since you'd either have to send the knife in for warranty work if a problem arises, or try to fix it yourself and risk voiding your warranty. Just by nature of the little moving parts in bearings, it is inevitable that at some point they'll need to be taken apart and cleaned, so it would be kind of a bummer to have to send in a knife for that work.

Well put.

[SpeedHoles]

Happy New Year All!

I'm following a post in one of the fb Spyderco fan groups; someone had posted a picture of the galling that is happening on the scales behind the washers; the action on mine was not smooth when I received it, I worked it a few times when I first got it and then put it aside and went onto other projects.

Today I took it apart and noticed the beginning of some galling on the scales (same their photos), I took some RIG +P Stainless steel lube and coated the scales where this was happening as well as some in the bearings and the pivot area. This product is known to minimize galling of metal on metal and I've used it on my ordinance for years.

Happy to report the Advocate now fires like a rocket when depressing the flipper tab and is a heck of a lot smoother when deploying the blade manually; it still has a strong detent but I prefer it that way. I did not adjust the frame lock to lessen the pressure when closing the blade as there is zero lock stick.

Below is an example of the galling on their scales (mine was just beginning) and an image of the RIG product used.

Ideally, aren't those washers supposed to remain stationary as a surface/raceway for the bearing to travel on?
If the scale surface is galling, wouldn't that mean the spacer is spinning, instead of the bearing? Meaning there is excessive friction or pressure between the bearing and washer, and then pivot movement is just transferred to the washer to scale surface...
So lubricating that particular surface just kind of made your knife a washer pivot (if friction there is less than in the bearing). It'll spin on the surface with least resistance/friction.
It seems those washers should be held static, and the bearing should be moving over them.
Maybe those washers could be held into the scale with application of some low bloom retaining compound (while still removable for replacement once their surface is worn though).

[hoimin]

No doubt there is a problem in Spyderco/Taiwan's implementation, root cause being the flimsy steel washers that are supposed to block the bearings from galling the handle.

I'm no engineer, but here are some ideas for solutions that I'd love to hear feedback from others about.
1) Dual Track Ball Bearings to spread the load of the ball bearings over a larger surface area of the steel washer. I don't know if anyone currently makes caged dual track ball bearing washers with the same ID/OD/thickness.
2) Thrust Bearings. Cylindrical bearings, rather than balls, again would spread the forces over a greater area so there is less pressure in one area. Again, matching the existing pivot dimension requirements will be what's required to minimize cost.
3) Carbidizing/Carburizing Ti-pockets. Whatever process that makes the titanium lockbar interface stronger. Additional work in manufacturing required, skips the steel washer. Might have to tweak pocket milling depth. Doesn't do anything for handle materials that are not Ti.
4) 'Tabbed' ball bearing washer with milled interface. Rotationally locks the caged washer into place in the handle scale, so only the ball bearings move when the blade moves.

Some companies who do more flippers than Spyderco either don't have steel washers (some ZTs), or use pretty hefty bearing races (Kizer).

[Mic1]

I have never been a big fan of bearings for several reasons. Hygiene harder to clean, maintainance you cannot just go buy washers just to name two main reasons and now you can add this potential problem. Plenty of flippers use Tefolon or bronze washers successfully.

I also think a folding knife should be able to be disassembled and cleaned easily. Emerson knives for example although not my style knife they are designed to be field stripped easily and cleaned.

[Bodog]

No doubt there is a problem in Spyderco/Taiwan's implementation, root cause being the flimsy steel washers that are supposed to block the bearings from galling the handle.

I'm no engineer, but here are some ideas for solutions that I'd love to hear feedback from others about.
1) Dual Track Ball Bearings to spread the load of the ball bearings over a larger surface area of the steel washer. I don't know if anyone currently makes caged dual track ball bearing washers with the same ID/OD/thickness.
2) Thrust Bearings. Cylindrical bearings, rather than balls, again would spread the forces over a greater area so there is less pressure in one area. Again, matching the existing pivot dimension requirements will be what's required to minimize cost.
3) Carbidizing/Carburizing Ti-pockets. Whatever process that makes the titanium lockbar interface stronger. Additional work in manufacturing required, skips the steel washer. Might have to tweak pocket milling depth. Doesn't do anything for handle materials that are not Ti.
4) 'Tabbed' ball bearing washer with milled interface. Rotationally locks the caged washer into place in the handle scale, so only the ball bearings move when the blade moves.

Some companies who do more flippers than Spyderco either don't have steel washers (some ZTs), or use pretty hefty bearing races (Kizer).

I think the cause is both the racers and the caged bearings. I don't believe I can get the bearings to easily roll in the cage and that leads to the dimples in the thin washers that leads to the cupping leading to the washers rotating sometimes and the bearings rotating sometimes leading to inconsistent and gritty action and unstable centering and scale galling and everything else. They need to scrap these and buy bigger bearings that actually roll within the cage and use washers that don't deform easily. Putting a tab on there that keeps the washers from spinning at that point would make sense.

Hate to say it but every other bearing pivot knife I've handed has better action than this system. The thing that tears me up is that 1) they have more forgiving warranties and 2) these knives, aside from the bearing system, are better in pretty much every way that pertains to function.

So it's a conundrum. I've been carrying the mantra in spite of these issues because it really is a good knife. Tried to show it off to some work buddies and they showed me some cheapo bullcrap from Mexico or wherever. They tried flipping mine and, rightfully, opened theirs and said theirs opened better and don't see why they should spend hundreds of dollars more for the spyderco. I told them it's titanium and M4 and all that and it fell on deaf ears. Theirs opened easier and they paid all of about $3. That's what they cared about.

[zeroed4x]

Hi,

Watched this video from Apostle P (Rob) describing in more detail washer/bearing issues that he & others have been encountering as the Advocate is being deployed/flipped more. As I stated earlier within the comments, mine wasn't nearly as worn as his is. He'll be placing a call into Spyderco to seek a resolution.

https://youtu.be/LG7Mq-X ... e=youtu.be

Thx, RSilva

The Advocate was on my "Maybe" list, then it was prioritized to my "Must Have" list, now it's not on any list until a full workaround/resolution is in place.
What a disappointment and I didn't even purchase one. There are many other knives with bearings that suffer similar issues. Hopefully Spyderco's reputation and integrity are not in jeopardy, I believe that they value their name over the almighty dollar. It will be interesting to see if the end users find resolution ie phosphor washer retrofit or if Spyderco steps up with a fair and viable solution.