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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:05 pm
by bigddy263
My washers are due in on Tuesday. Hopefully I will have some results for you guys NLT Wed.

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:47 pm
by Surfingringo
Just to offer a data point, my mantra is a couple of years old and is stil as buttery smooth as it was when new.

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:44 pm
by Bodog
I'd like to point out that buttery smooth or even almost frictionless movement can easily be accomplished with phosphor bronze washers, people want bearings for better than almost frictionless movement. Some companies get it right and if a company cannot get it right, they should stick with the buttery smoothness of pb washers.

Compared to what other companies can do with bearings, spyderco missed the mark with the mantra and other knives. Compared to what other companies can do with pb washers, spyderco nails it.

I have one military and one pm2 that if put into a flipper design would absolutely stand up to bearings in terms of frictionless action. When bearings are worse than washers or washers are as good as bearings in terms of freedom of movement, something is wrong with the bearing design.

I haven't heard anyone say spyderco's bearings are better than their washers. I've only heard people defend the bearings as being good enough. I've definitely not heard anyone compare them directly to other known quality manufacturers' bearings because i have a good feeling everyone knows who would win the majority of the time.

This isn't to say that spyderco sucks so please don't take it that way. I'm saying don't reinvent the wheel, so to speak. Spyderco is better than most regarding pb washers. Worse than most regarding bearings. Don't fix something that ain't broke.

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:49 pm
by GarageBoy
I have no dog in the race (no pun intended) but part of me wishes Spyderco would just issue or install pb washers as requested

Would make a lot of people happy

I know a slightly crushed pivot won't necessarily bind, but I'm over about "perfection"

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:57 pm
by Sharp Guy
Bodog wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:44 pm
I haven't heard anyone say spyderco's bearings are better than their washers. I've only heard people defend the bearings as being good enough. I've definitely not heard anyone compare them directly to other known quality manufacturers' bearings because i have a good feeling everyone knows who would win the majority of the time.
I'm not sure why we have to keep beating this horse but....

I get what you're saying about Spyderco's knives with PB washers. They can be really smooth and I have the compression, frame, and liner lock knives to prove it. However, the Mantra I have is a tick more free than any of my 4-PM2s, 4-Para 3s, Sage 5, Sage 2, or GBs. It's not quite like my ZT 0450 but it's more than smooth enough to flip just fine. How fast do we need these things to open?

Some of you act like Spyderco has done nothing about the bearing situation. They've evaluated the situation and applied CQI. The Advocate was a relatively new model and they spent the time and money to redesign the knife to accept a new bearing system, which I think is great BTW. I had the opportunity to talk with Gayle Bradley a few months ago. He thought it was ridiculous that Spyderco felt the need to redesign the knife. Personally, I'm glad they did. The new system is more stout and seems to be really smooth in my Advocate and Sliverax. Going forward we'll see new models using this new system and I hope and pray that people will finally stop moaning about it.

As far as Spyderco issuing or installing PB washers as requested. My guess is that there isn't an ideal sized washer that will work. The one guy's saying he had to buy a combination of washers to stack to attempt to make it work. The Mantras have been out for a few years now and it's probably just easier to call it quits on this version. I've said this before....with the Mantra 3 being introduced, I'd be willing to bet the Mantra and Mantra 2 will be on the discontinued list when it come out next month. Which is a shame IMO.

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:40 am
by Evil D
Nope. Not gonna do it.

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:45 pm
by foofie
Will the Mantra3 have the same bearing system as the Sliverax? The Sliverax works very well, and I would have no complaints about this bearing system in the Mantra3.

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:08 pm
by Mr Blonde
FWIW, from looking on the outside in, and with prototypes, the sliverax bearing system did look very similar to the new mantra 3.

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:36 pm
by bigddy263
Well, good news/bad news. The washers arrived early. But, after installation lockup is good, smoothness is good and there is no play, but there is too much friction for a flipper. The resistance will not allow the blade to be flipped open at all. I used 15wt nano oil between each washer, but it feels like there is heavy grease in the pivot. I tried breaking it in by open/closing it many times, but it didn't seem to change. I also tried to slightly overtorque it and work it back and forth, but that didnt work either. It seems the guys from Spyderco have a pretty good design already. I am open to suggestions.

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:50 pm
by Daveho
When I did mine I had the same issue.
I worked the washers a little on a dragons tongue stone and it was great after that- any very fine abrasive should do I think

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:56 pm
by bigddy263
Quick update, I put the bearings back in, loosened the frame lock, and its pretty good now. Opens completely about 95 percent of the time and is always smooth now. The detent is a little weak, but its ok for my taste.

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:18 pm
by brainfriction
Are these the same bearings as the Domino? Because my Domino has always been smooth, seems like a lot of the issues with these flippers stem from distorted washers.

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:03 am
by bigddy263
Not sure about the domino, I haven't had my hands on one. I did preorder a Mantra 3 though. I prefer a stainless steel, and I trust that they got the pivot right on this one. Should be an absolutely sweet knife. fingers crossed.

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:36 pm
by bigddy263
Ok, last post on this one(probably). Since loosening the tension in the frame lock, this knife is absolutely sweet. It opens push button style great, and light switch style Ok. it still opens best with a flick of the spydie hole. There is no lock stick anymore. And it will almost fall shut, even with the light blade. To loosen it, I removed the overtravel stop, and bent it by hand. I went a little too far and had to bend it back a little. To me the tension fits the knife size perfectly now, it was too beefy before. I love my "executive delica" now, and im sure it will last a lifetime. I hope you get yours to a place that you can love it also.

Need new washers!

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:43 pm
by Holland
My mantra washers are completely destroyed. After they got pretty bad I decided to try and over tighten the pivot more and forcefully break the washers in and it made the knife significantly worse.

I contacted W&R and they won't sell me new washers and require me to send my knife in. Given the current environment with the Canada border... I don't want to send my knife and risk having it seized on return.

Has anyone else successfully received washers from Spyderco in the past without sending their knife in?

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:54 pm
by hereiamu1
Same issue with my dice. I wish there was a fix. It's a great knife other than the washers.

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:53 pm
by Bodog
I really hope spyderco releases a cqi'ed version of the mantra 1 and clearly differentiates between the models. The overall knife was great. If Sal wants to send me one as a loaner I'd be happy to pass it on to another person if that's what was asked. This knife could have been a great, i still think it could be if they threw the new bearings in there. I doubt Sal wants me involved very much.

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:05 pm
by awa54
OK, I'll admit that I'm just picking at the scab, since all things Mantra have moved on and for most here it's not a "thing" anymore...

I picked up a Mantra 2 on clearance and I *love* the blade shape and ergos! Until a month or so back mine flipped nicely and was smooth as can be, no issues whatsoever, then one day the dreaded bearing detent appeared. I can't remember cutting anything forcefully and I certainly didn't mess with the pivot in light of previous incidents of washer destruction through over-tightening.

This knife had usurped all others as my EDC, but got laid aside when the flipping went from adequate to not happening... the next step was fitting a three stack of .015" PB washers on each side to replace my bearings and newly dimpled washers. The results were underwhelming and little better than the *%#$ bearings. it sat for another week. Then I decided to un-dimple the washers using the flats of a caliper jaw, after reinstallation the bearings were back to working well, but only until the next washer destroying cut :(

I have to say that this is the biggest disappointment I have had from Spyderco, mostly because it's such a great knife and has such a disabling fatal flaw. Looking at the design, the problem was trying to slim the knife down to the point where the thrust washer had to be so thin that it couldn't resist deformation when backed by titanium. if the knife was just a few thousandths thicker or had a recess machined in the tang to give the bearings more room on the inside this could have been avoided, it's even possible that an ultra-hard washer or needle bearings instead of balls might fix it and I'm sure that a purpose machined PB bushing would work better than my 3-stack kluge did, but none of this happened, which is astounding, considering how exhaustively Spyderco seems to prototype new models.

My guess is that this series' issues were such a black eye for Spyderco that they decided to flush the project rather than CQI it, which makes me sad, since it was such a fabulous knife with the exception of those awful bearings...

If anyone knows a source for extremely hard thrust washers or tiny needle races please let me know!

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:28 pm
by GarageBoy
****, I was really hoping all was well in wonderland

Mantra 2.1 please?

Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:06 am
by Albatross
GarageBoy wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:28 pm
****, I was really hoping all was well in wonderland

Mantra 2.1 please?
I'd like to see this as well, but I just don't think the market is there for this model unfortunately. I vastly prefer it to the 1 & 3, but my washers dished, despite knowing about the issue and never tightening past the point where blade play was eliminated. I might just take a risk and remove the washers to see what happens.