Mantra Bearing Race

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abbazaba
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Mantra Bearing Race

Postby abbazaba » Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:20 pm

After a week of spending every waking moment flicking my new favorite knife, the bearing still didn't feel nearly as smooth as I would expect, and not even close to a standard pivot. I had taken delivery of both the Mantra and Mantra2, and they both had the same feeling pivot action: slightly "bumpy" but still free and easy (noted in the Mantra vs Mantra2 thread). I did not lubricate it or adjust the pivot bolt (centering was perfect on both my samples), and spent the week "breaking in" my Mantra2.

Nothing changed, so today I added a drop of lube = no real difference. So I bit the bullet and took a look. Some thin steel washers smartly sit between the bearings and the titanium handles acting as the races. Unfortunately, both had detents from the bearings pressed into them as seen in the pictures below. You cannot tell in the pics, but they are also slightly dished from the pressure, and the deformation can be seen coming through the backside. Again, I have never adjusted the pivot bolt until removal. I cleaned it all up real good and coated with some Finish Line extreme fluoro.

I present this humbly, but it seems as though something is wrong. I'm not sure if the washers are too thin, or if they did not mate flush enough with the handles to discourage disfigurement? I respectfully ask for any insight that can be provided.

Image
Image

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SpyderNut
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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby SpyderNut » Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:19 pm

I can't speak for Spyderco obviously, but it almost looks like perhaps the pivot screw was over tightened during manufacturing, thereby causing the dimpled action on the washers. I would personally send it to W&R and have them evaluate. Perhaps all it needs is a new set of washers and bearings to fix the issue.
:spyder: Michael Reinhold

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awa54
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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby awa54 » Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:37 pm

yup, over-tightened at some point by the look... new correctly sized stainless shims ought to correct that.

I'd suggest replacing them with thicker shims, but the tolerances are probably too close to allow any additional thickness.


By the way, do those shims seem like they are hardened or mild steel? if they're not hardened, I'd replace them with non OEM hardened ones!
Last edited by awa54 on Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby Liquid Cobra » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:33 pm

How obviously could you feel the bumpiness? My mantra feels a little off, but I'm not sure if it's like you're talking about.
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abbazaba
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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby abbazaba » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:16 pm

Liquid Cobra wrote:How obviously could you feel the bumpiness? My mantra feels a little off, but I'm not sure if it's like you're talking about.
It was pretty obvious, especially now that I know what was wrong. If I had seen pictures like this I would've immediately said "yup, I got that too". If you don't feel that way it might not have this problem.
SpyderNut wrote:I would personally send it to W&R and have them evaluate.
Would they honor the warranty? I'm the only one that truly knows it was like this when I got it.

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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby SpyderNut » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:23 pm

abbazaba wrote:
Liquid Cobra wrote:How obviously could you feel the bumpiness? My mantra feels a little off, but I'm not sure if it's like you're talking about.
It was pretty obvious, especially now that I know what was wrong. If I had seen pictures like this I would've immediately said "yup, I got that too". If you don't feel that way it might not have this problem.
SpyderNut wrote:I would personally send it to W&R and have them evaluate.
Would they honor the warranty? I'm the only one that truly knows it was like this when I got it.
Well... Technically, they may choose not to honor the warranty since the knife has been disassembled. However, I would still write to them and explain the issue in detail. If nothing else, they may be able to send you replacement parts that will correct the issue.
:spyder: Michael Reinhold

"...as I said before, 'the edge is a wondrous thing', [but] in all of it's qualities, it is still a ghost." - sal

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3rdGenRigger
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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby 3rdGenRigger » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:09 pm

I'd contact W&R and see what they have to say.
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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby swigert » Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:51 pm

Give them a call and ask to talk to Charlynn. Just explain the situation knowing it is their right to charge you because you took it apart.

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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby bearfacedkiller » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:22 am

Thank you for taking it apart and taking a disassembled pic. I have been waiting for one. :)
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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby flash900 » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:54 am

My Mantra feels just like you describe yours. The lock doesn't feel very smooth. Not bad. Not bad at all. Just not up to my other Taichung folders.

The Spydie hole also feels like the fit and finish wasn't quite finished.

I like the design very much; the execution is a bit disappointing.

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abbazaba
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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby abbazaba » Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:07 pm

bearfacedkiller wrote:Thank you for taking it apart and taking a disassembled pic. I have been waiting for one. :)
That was my main reason for posting the second pic :)

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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby palonej » Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:11 pm

Without a doubt call Charlynn!!
Explain the situation. I just went thru something like this with a brand new Ti Millie......call her!!
Good luck!
Joe

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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby farnorthdan » Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:12 pm

Yes thanks for the pics abbazabba, they are real clear and appreciate you taking the time to do it.
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jtoler_9
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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby jtoler_9 » Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:32 pm

My brand new Domino feels exactly as you described. Feels like it's going over tiny speed bumps as it opens.

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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby timlara » Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:22 pm

I have brought this issue up before as well, since I had the same problem on the first Domino I bought. It was bad enough on that knife that it was basically impossible to flip. Luckily I was able to exchange it for one that worked better.

I love the Mantra/Mantra 2 designs (and the Domino), but unfortunately I have to say I am just not a fan of the ball bearing washers. I think it's a novel idea on paper, but just doesn't work very well in reality. In order for the bearings to work as intended, the tolerances on every part of the mechanism have to be absolutely perfect...there is just basically zero margin for error. If anything is off just a tiny bit, you end up with more friction than you would have without the bearings in the first place. I just don't think it's worth the complexity.

I would really prefer for future flippers to just have nice phosphor bronze bushings instead of ball bearings. The action on my Sage 3 for example is WAY, WAY smoother than my Domino or Mantra2 could ever dream of being.

I still like the Mantra 2 quite a bit, but it is a bit disappointing that it fails to flip about 1/4 of the time due to the lack of smoothness.

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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby Tdog » Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:53 pm

The action on my Sage 3 is probably the smoothest of any Spyderco I have. Wish they were all this smooth. Glad I'm not getting the "bumpy" feeling, on my 2. Hopefully opening will improve a bit with time. I got in the habit of putting a drop of oil on the pivot of all my new Spydies. Don't think it would have helped in this case. ;)

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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby knifeuser » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:28 pm

Tdog wrote:The action on my Sage 3 is probably the smoothest of any Spyderco I have. Wish they were all this smooth. Glad I'm not getting the "bumpy" feeling, on my 2. Hopefully opening will improve a bit with time. I got in the habit of putting a drop of oil on the pivot of all my new Spydies. Don't think it would have helped in this case. ;)
The Sage3 and Sage2 both run on BP washers which is a different from the caged bearings in the Mantra series. Your Sage2 will never get that "bumpy" feeling since it's a oddity unique to bearings/bearing races.

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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby Tdog » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:01 am

knifeuser wrote:
Tdog wrote:The action on my Sage 3 is probably the smoothest of any Spyderco's I have. Wish they were all this smooth. Glad I'm not getting the "bumpy" feeling, on my Mantra 2. Hopefully opening will improve a bit with time. I got in the habit of putting a drop of oil on the pivot of all my new Spydies. Don't think it would have helped in this case. ;)
The Sage3 and Sage2 both run on BP washers which is a different from the caged bearings in the Mantra series. Your Sage2 will never get that "bumpy" feeling since it's a oddity unique to bearings/bearing races.
Oops, should have clarified, fixed to say Mantra 2. :) Love the Sage 2 as well, but the Mantra 2 will get more carry time. The blade shape, compact nature, and additional cutting edge on the Mantra 2 works for me. Both great designs. :spyder:

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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby gull wing » Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:03 am

I would be interested in seeing how this turns out.
I have a Southard and Dice that doesn't have this defect.
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JerryIsAlive
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Re: Mantra Bearing Race

Postby JerryIsAlive » Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:58 am

Mine is as smooth as can be. Must have been a handful that snuck out of factory


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