New ultimate mule steel - Vancron 40

[PayneTrain]

It's different. I like that. I'm in.

Ever since I learned of H1, nitrogen "steels" have intrigued me. This one has plenty of carbon to be called a steel, but it's interesting to see how nitrogen can shake things up.

[sal]

Thanx Cliff. As Jim said, we'll see if it becomes available and in a format we can use.

Carpenter made a run of Maxamet just for our Mule Team. It too is expensive and raw material costs for a Mule Team are about 4 times most exotics like S110V. We've found that many of the foundries will create a batch just for our use (Crucible, Carpenter, even Hitachi).

Are you trying to say that knife blades are not the biggest and most interesting of all of the steel markets? :p

sal

[Cliff Stamp]

Thanx Cliff. As Jim said, we'll see if it becomes available and in a format we can use.

Sal it is available in bar/sheet stock, this is commonly used in industry in that form.

We've found that many of the foundries will create a batch just for our use (Crucible, Carpenter, even Hitachi).

Funny how giving people money tends to make them do just that very thing.

In general as with most things, often it takes just talking to a lot of people. I have talked to pretty much every large steel company and the tech department. It may be that you have to talk to 50 people to get someone like Ronald Long (Carpenter) but when you do it is worth the 50 conversations that go no where as you get things like this :



CTS-B75P, austenized at 2050 Q&T to 62 HRC. This is Carpenters PM version of BG-42.

Are you trying to say that knife blades are not the biggest and most interesting of all of the steel markets?

I always found it surprising that everyone else didn't share my interests with the same passion, no accounting for taste.

[Ankerson]

Edited to rethink my post.......

Trying to be civil....

[Archimedes]

You make an interesting observation." The steel conversation." I would guess that 95% of all knife buyers would trust the manufacturer to choose a great steel. I do. Steel is really not that interesting to most people. I feel it is a marketing advantage to have cool steel for a small minority of uber geeks like me. Make a new knife in some cool "NEW" steel and market it, like it is so special and cutting edge. Most people, like all of them, would probably be served with S35V. 90% or more of the knives that are sold aftermarket are never used. Anyway the minutia of steel is probably lost on most of us. I think better designs and high end production far outweighs cool "NEW" steels. Just my 2 cents. I am sure as a large scale manufacturer you understand this and you bring the cool steels as a luxury to calm the addicts nerves. This is a good thing. Carry on.

[Ankerson]

You make an interesting observation." The steel conversation." I would guess that 95% of all knife buyers would trust the manufacturer to choose a great steel. I do. Steel is really not that interesting to most people. I feel it is a marketing advantage to have cool steel for a small minority of uber geeks like me. Make a new knife in some cool "NEW" steel and market it, like it is so special and cutting edge. Most people, like all of them, would probably be served with S35V. 90% or more of the knives that are sold aftermarket are never used. Anyway the minutia of steel is probably lost on most of us. I think better designs and high end production far outweighs cool "NEW" steels. Just my 2 cents. I am sure as a large scale manufacturer you understand this and you bring the cool steels as a luxury to calm the addicts nerves. This is a good thing. Carry on.

I think they try and give the customers what they want, if they want performance that's why they try and give them. :)

Just like any other want like cost, cool factor etc.

[Fancier]

I seek clarification. If martensite is a particular crystalline structure containing iron and carbon, then how can it be formed from nitrogen?
Wouldn't a similar structure formed from iron and carbon and nitrogen be something other than martensite?

[Cliff Stamp]

I would guess that 95% of all knife buyers would trust the manufacturer to choose a great steel.

Yes and that is why P. T. Barnum laughed his way to the bank every day and twice on Sunday. In fact people continue to believe this mainly because the alternative is unpleasant. However this is mainly a NA view, in other cultures it is very different.

I spent some time in India and there that kind of view is extremely naive. I once went to buy a carving for a friend and I was seriously over charged for a very common material used in a very basic way. I felt cheated. I mentioned this to my friend who was a native Indian. He thought it was one of the funniest things he had ever heard. He noted to me that guy who sold me that thing has the purpose of getting the most money he can to support his family. My purpose is supposed to be to get the most I can out of my money to support my family. Instead of blaming the guy for cheating me try not being so ignorant so you can spend money wisely.

In countries where bargaining/bartering is common this is a common viewpoint and the initial sales exchange can be dramatic. Initial prices can easily be 2X the final price, if you are at all sensed to be a little ignorant it can skyrocket to 10X.

In regards to steels, and trusting manufacturers, try this exercise :

-pick any style of knife you can think on
-look at the range of steels you can find in that knife

Now in comparison pick a type of tool like a hammer, crowbar or drill bit and look at what kind of materials are used. Now ask yourself how come one of them has basically random choices and one of them isn't?

[PayneTrain]

From what I understand, martensite is not specific to iron and carbon. Neither is austenite. I believe they both just specify a certain crystalline structure of any alloy, not just steel. For instance, the shift between martensite and austenite is what makes shape memory alloys like nitinol (titanium and nickel alloy) work their magic. I'm sure Cliff can explain better, but I thought I'd try and show off a bit before he responds.

[Cliff Stamp]

Wouldn't a similar structure formed from iron and carbon and nitrogen be something other than martensite?

Steel exists in a crystal structure called a metallic bond where unlike a covalent or ionic bond where two elements are held together by forces which act on them in pairs (or chains of pairs), in a metallic bond there is a large structure where the same bond exists between each atom and its nearest neighbors. In this was there is not a discrete molecule of steel but one big crystal.

Plain iron at room temperature exists in a body centered cubic structure (alpha) which just means the iron atoms are in a cube with one in the middle, this is ferrite. It has little ability to dissolve carbon which is why if you put a lot of carbon in iron to make steel you will end up at room temperature with a large amount of ferrite and a bunch of cementite which is a hard phase of a direct iron-carbon bond (iron carbide), and you can also get graphite which is just a carbon based structure.

As you heat the steel it turns into austenite (gamma) which has a face centered cubic structure which means it is a cube with iron in the middle of the faces, there is nothing in the middle of the cube. This kind of phase transition where one crystal structure forms just has to do with the fact that at different temperatures there is a different level of energy available and this influences what structure will form as the energy has to be utilized. Now the fact that it is face centered cubic makes one large difference because that big gap in the middle means it can fit other elements inside of each cube which is why when you heat steels up to convert them from ferrite to austenite all of the alloy floods into the austenite as it can fit in there.



Now if you cool the austenite slowly then all the alloy comes out and it goes back to ferrite + cementite and nothing exciting happens. However it takes time for the carbon (and other alloying elements) to come out of the austenite, if you cool the steel so fast it can't physically move out then it is trapped. This is why martensite is called a diffusionless reaction as it happens without movement of the carbon out of the austenite.

But the problem is once it is cooled it doesn't have the energy to remain in the austenite crystal structure (just like when you cool water it will turn to ice). However it also can't go back to a BCC structure (ferrite) as there is no room with all the other alloy inside the cubes. Thus what you end up with is a heavily distorted cube formed by shear (body centered tetragonal) and this distortion puts the steel in a state of heavy strain and it also creates dislocations (the structure becomes less that perfect) and this is what makes it hard (and brittle which is why you have to temper it).

Carbon and nitrogen behave similar in that both of them dissolved in the austenite will make it transform to that BCT structure, things like nickel for example will not. Often this is because once dissolved in the steel they can prevent ferrite from forming and keep austenite even at room temperature, this is why they are called austenite stabilizers. Or they are like vanadium and they are a ferrite stabilizer and they restrict austenite from forming in the first place.

[Cliff Stamp]

This one has plenty of carbon to be called a steel, but it's interesting to see how nitrogen can shake things up.

The main issue now is one of expense which is why it isn't used more commonly. However as methods of manufacturing improve it is likely to see more use, similar with niobium. Rare earth elements also are going to see more use because of the effect they have on impact toughness. However I believe the largest impact is going to be seen not in alloying elements but in microstructure control. Recent advancements in nano-scale processing have produced results where the strength of steels can be maintained but toughness properties can be increased by a factor of 10X. Ways to achieve this sub-structure used to be very involved and required things like mechanical forming at high temperatures however they are being discovered now to be able to be achieved by very simple cyclic processing. Imagine for example you could take a VG-10 blade and make it have the same hardness/strength but twice as tough just by hardening it twice with slightly different cycles. This is extremely attractive and sub-structure modifications have extreme influences with no drawbacks unlike for example alloying to increase toughness which typically decreases strength.

[Cliff Stamp]

Just to clarify in case it got lost in the above, knives have been made out of Vancron 40, they have for quite some time. It just isn't that well known however there is no issue in getting in suitable stock.

A more conventional steel from Uddeholm is Vanadis 10 which is a high carbon version of A11 (10V) so it hardens at lower austenization temperatures and of course has the high abrasive wear resistance of a 10% vanadium steel.

There is even a video on YT comparing both steels by a couple of European guys.

[Archimedes]

I would guess that 95% of all knife buyers would trust the manufacturer to choose a great steel.

Yes and that is why P. T. Barnum laughed his way to the bank every day and twice on Sunday. In fact people continue to believe this mainly because the alternative is unpleasant. However this is mainly a NA view, in other cultures it is very different.

I spent some time in India and there that kind of view is extremely naive. I once went to buy a carving for a friend and I was seriously over charged for a very common material used in a very basic way. I felt cheated. I mentioned this to my friend who was a native Indian. He thought it was one of the funniest things he had ever heard. He noted to me that guy who sold me that thing has the purpose of getting the most money he can to support his family. My purpose is supposed to be to get the most I can out of my money to support my family. Instead of blaming the guy for cheating me try not being so ignorant so you can spend money wisely.

In countries where bargaining/bartering is common this is a common viewpoint and the initial sales exchange can be dramatic. Initial prices can easily be 2X the final price, if you are at all sensed to be a little ignorant it can skyrocket to 10X.

In regards to steels, and trusting manufacturers, try this exercise :

-pick any style of knife you can think on
-look at the range of steels you can find in that knife

Now in comparison pick a type of tool like a hammer, crowbar or drill bit and look at what kind of materials are used. Now ask yourself how come one of them has basically random choices and one of them isn't?

I do not want to sound stupid but I do not understand the point you are making. You over paid for a carving in India, I get that part. Then on to Trusting manufacturers. Are you saying that tooling manufacturers always pick a great steel but knife manufacturers don't so as to make more money?

[Cliff Stamp]

Are you saying that tooling manufacturers always pick a great steel but knife manufacturers don't so as to make more money?

There are no such things as great materials, this is the first hurdle you have to cross.

Is a carpenter a better trade than an electrician? Well if you need a table built yes, if you need an electrical panel hooked up then no. But as some kind of general better, the question doesn't make sense as it isn't defined. It is like asking is 30 km/hr a better speed than 40 km/hr. It is faster, but if you are sightseeing you might not want to go faster.

Is S90V a better steel than 420HC? Well here are the properties :

-420 has superior, cost, grindability, apex stability, ease of sharpening, impact toughness

-S90V has superior wear resistance and strength

Now does it make any sense to say one of them is better than another, it would be like saying a 100m sprinter is a better runner than an ultra-marathoner. They do different things just like pine isn't a better or worse wood than spruce in general, however if you say what you need then you can say if pine would be better than spruce for that particular application.

In the above you noted you trust knife manufacturers, well that doesn't happen in the tooling industry, it isn't a faith/religion business, it is a science based one. If you come out with a new steel like Vancron 40 which has superior anti-galling properties then you can't expect people to just believe you and buy it because you say it, you actually have to have :

-a description of why it happens, what is causing it
-data to support that it does happen in that actual application

If you are a purchase manager and someone reviews your logs and asks you to justify the tooling change and you have no data but you just trust the manufacturer well then you are likely to be on the unemployment line soon. However if the manufacturer has the data and a compelling argument then it is reasonable to expect people would try it. Now think about the knife industry and see is that how things generally work?

Just ask yourself the question does it make sense at all that S7 which is a low wear, extreme toughness shock steel and 10V which is a high wear, brittle die steel, are both used in the same knife as they are complete opposites? Take a look in the tooling industry and see how common it is to find the same tool made out of both steels, but in the knife industry this happens all the time. Why, because steel choices are rarely considered for application but instead are chosen mainly based on branding.

Don't have faith in this because I said it, pick a few makers/manufacturers and just ask them for the data to support why they use the steels they do in the knives they do. Pick a few that use radically different steels in the same type of knife and see how they can justify materials which have the exact opposite properties in the same tool. Then try a different experiment, go in the tooling industry and ask for the same thing. Call up Bohler and ask to speak to the tech/steel department. There is nothing you can do to make a tech rep happier than to ask him to lecture you on why a particular steel makes a good gauge steel and if you really want to make him happy ask him why.

Spyderco is rare in that it is one of the few companies that actually does this with steels, and in general their knives. They don't ask for faith from the customers. Spyderco was one of the first (possibly the first) to both perform HRC tests, CATRA, Q-fog, lock break tests and disclose these to the public. Sal openly talks about why they do things the way they do, why they use steels in certain areas and not in others, why they don't flat grind H1, why MBC knives set off lock developments, how they have addressed problems with knives etc. .

Blind faith is always destructive, not just to you but to the other person because you are removing from them the benefit of an outside critical perspective and if they actually want to learn they will want to see that. This is why the truly ironic thing is that the people who demand faith are the ones that you never would want to give it to and the people who never demand it are the ones who most deserve it. But again, they reason they don't want it is that it doesn't help them, it always hurts them.

If someone really has an argument for a position, if they have data and a logical/rational means to support the claim then asking them for it never aggravates them, they will easily provide it. The only time people get upset when they are challenged is when they are just making things up and can't justify anything and are exposed. If you ask David Boye has he done any work to support his ideas on steels he will smile, invite you into his shop, show you a well worn bench and cutting block and stacks of rope and a very used stone(s).

As I have always said, if you do an open an unbiased criticism of general Spyderco products vs other knives such as Benchmade, Cold Steel, Buck, etc. then in general, Spyderco fares very well. Thus if you were Spyderco what kind of commentary would you want to see - open and unbiased. The only people who want a kind of biased perspective are people who can't actually compete in an open market.

[Deadboxhero]

Any updates with Vancron 40?

I think this is more of something I'm looking for, a Nitrogen steel with high hardness, high alloy.

[ThePeacent]

Are you saying that tooling manufacturers always pick a great steel but knife manufacturers don't so as to make more money?

There are no such things as great materials, this is the first hurdle you have to cross.

Is a carpenter a better trade than an electrician? Well if you need a table built yes, if you need an electrical panel hooked up then no. But as some kind of general better, the question doesn't make sense as it isn't defined. It is like asking is 30 km/hr a better speed than 40 km/hr. It is faster, but if you are sightseeing you might not want to go faster.

Is S90V a better steel than 420HC? Well here are the properties :

-420 has superior, cost, grindability, apex stability, ease of sharpening, impact toughness

-S90V has superior wear resistance and strength

Now does it make any sense to say one of them is better than another, it would be like saying a 100m sprinter is a better runner than an ultra-marathoner. They do different things just like pine isn't a better or worse wood than spruce in general, however if you say what you need then you can say if pine would be better than spruce for that particular application.

In the above you noted you trust knife manufacturers, well that doesn't happen in the tooling industry, it isn't a faith/religion business, it is a science based one. If you come out with a new steel like Vancron 40 which has superior anti-galling properties then you can't expect people to just believe you and buy it because you say it, you actually have to have :

-a description of why it happens, what is causing it
-data to support that it does happen in that actual application

If you are a purchase manager and someone reviews your logs and asks you to justify the tooling change and you have no data but you just trust the manufacturer well then you are likely to be on the unemployment line soon. However if the manufacturer has the data and a compelling argument then it is reasonable to expect people would try it. Now think about the knife industry and see is that how things generally work?

Just ask yourself the question does it make sense at all that S7 which is a low wear, extreme toughness shock steel and 10V which is a high wear, brittle die steel, are both used in the same knife as they are complete opposites? Take a look in the tooling industry and see how common it is to find the same tool made out of both steels, but in the knife industry this happens all the time. Why, because steel choices are rarely considered for application but instead are chosen mainly based on branding.

Don't have faith in this because I said it, pick a few makers/manufacturers and just ask them for the data to support why they use the steels they do in the knives they do. Pick a few that use radically different steels in the same type of knife and see how they can justify materials which have the exact opposite properties in the same tool. Then try a different experiment, go in the tooling industry and ask for the same thing. Call up Bohler and ask to speak to the tech/steel department. There is nothing you can do to make a tech rep happier than to ask him to lecture you on why a particular steel makes a good gauge steel and if you really want to make him happy ask him why.

Spyderco is rare in that it is one of the few companies that actually does this with steels, and in general their knives. They don't ask for faith from the customers. Spyderco was one of the first (possibly the first) to both perform HRC tests, CATRA, Q-fog, lock break tests and disclose these to the public. Sal openly talks about why they do things the way they do, why they use steels in certain areas and not in others, why they don't flat grind H1, why MBC knives set off lock developments, how they have addressed problems with knives etc. .

Blind faith is always destructive, not just to you but to the other person because you are removing from them the benefit of an outside critical perspective and if they actually want to learn they will want to see that. This is why the truly ironic thing is that the people who demand faith are the ones that you never would want to give it to and the people who never demand it are the ones who most deserve it. But again, they reason they don't want it is that it doesn't help them, it always hurts them.

If someone really has an argument for a position, if they have data and a logical/rational means to support the claim then asking them for it never aggravates them, they will easily provide it. The only time people get upset when they are challenged is when they are just making things up and can't justify anything and are exposed. If you ask David Boye has he done any work to support his ideas on steels he will smile, invite you into his shop, show you a well worn bench and cutting block and stacks of rope and a very used stone(s).

As I have always said, if you do an open an unbiased criticism of general Spyderco products vs other knives such as Benchmade, Cold Steel, Buck, etc. then in general, Spyderco fares very well. Thus if you were Spyderco what kind of commentary would you want to see - open and unbiased. The only people who want a kind of biased perspective are people who can't actually compete in an open market.

I have no news on Van 40, but that last post of Cliff in this thread is a truth that hits like a fist, and bears repeating, re-reading and quoting for posterity :spyder:

[Archimedes]

Cliff is the master of taking a simple concept and making it overly complex. I had professors like him in college. Reading his posts seriously sucks the life out of me.

[RadioactiveSpyder]

Is it just me or do all these new steels sound like they’re being smelted on Cybertron?

(Just trying to lighten things up a bit...)

[sal]

We're checking on it.

sal

[Deadboxhero]

We're checking on it.

sal

Thanks Sal, I am still waiting to get my Vanax knife back from heat treatment to see what I think.

But really I've been looking for Nitrogen steels that don't substitute carbon but add both and alloys for high working hardness.

Kinda of just questing for the greatest "edge"

I really appreciate what you guys do since your company is what started this knife steel madnesses that consumes me!

It will be great to see what's coming.

By the way, that CBN stone has broken in nice, thanks

-Shawn