I was wondering if we could clear something up on the difference in weight for various materials.
If one were to make a handle scale of the same size out steel, almuminum, titanium, CF, G10, and Zytel, what would be the order of lightest to heaviest?
I'm guessing:
1. CF (laminate)
2. Zytel
3. Aluminum
4. G10
5. Titanium
6. Steel
A follow up question: What would be the order of strength/rigidity for the same scales-materials?
Weight differentials.
That sounds about right. Might be close on the AL and G10.
Now for price differentials. I would imagine from cheapest to most expensive.
1. Zytel
2. Al
3. G10
4. SS
5. Ti
6. CF
Taking into consideration the price of materials and difficulty of machining.
You have to keep that in perspective when you are looking at a production knife. Would be nice if they were all high performance carbon fiber models, but in reality, we can't get away with that.
Now for price differentials. I would imagine from cheapest to most expensive.
1. Zytel
2. Al
3. G10
4. SS
5. Ti
6. CF
Taking into consideration the price of materials and difficulty of machining.
You have to keep that in perspective when you are looking at a production knife. Would be nice if they were all high performance carbon fiber models, but in reality, we can't get away with that.
I think strength/rigidity ranking would be hard to determine for the listed materials.
Characteristics of aluminum, titanium, and steel would be completely different depending on composition of alloys. For example, Specialized Bicycle uses proprietry Al alloy on their high-end bikes, and they are far more rigid than more common Al alloys.
Strength/rigidity of carbon fiber changes depending on how it is woven. For example, CF bike frames are woven so it is very rigid against side-to-side force, but it is flexible enough vertically to give a dampening effect for all those bumps on the road/trail.
As for G10 and Zytel, I have no idea. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
Characteristics of aluminum, titanium, and steel would be completely different depending on composition of alloys. For example, Specialized Bicycle uses proprietry Al alloy on their high-end bikes, and they are far more rigid than more common Al alloys.
Strength/rigidity of carbon fiber changes depending on how it is woven. For example, CF bike frames are woven so it is very rigid against side-to-side force, but it is flexible enough vertically to give a dampening effect for all those bumps on the road/trail.
As for G10 and Zytel, I have no idea. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
I think I'll have to weight the FRN and Aluminum Walkers when I get back to Denver.
Rigidity is relative to thickness in FRN, probably similar in aluminum.
Also rigidity to weight (CF is king) makes a big difference.
Some materials need less material to create equal strengths.
As Tique mentioned, price. If it's great but no one can afford to own one, it's a relic.
Is a skeletonized titanium, aluminum or steel frame stronger/lighter than a composite?
Given the opportunity to own your ideal model and handle material (or combinations), what would it be?
sal
sal
Rigidity is relative to thickness in FRN, probably similar in aluminum.
Also rigidity to weight (CF is king) makes a big difference.
Some materials need less material to create equal strengths.
As Tique mentioned, price. If it's great but no one can afford to own one, it's a relic.
Is a skeletonized titanium, aluminum or steel frame stronger/lighter than a composite?
Given the opportunity to own your ideal model and handle material (or combinations), what would it be?
sal
sal
I think my ideal model would be a Wegner, with textured CF scales and VG-10 blade. I don't think that would be too unreasonable for a run either.
I might also fancy a Military in CF, would be nice, but textured for grip, not polished to be purdy. I would also like to see the Military get the grooves back on the underside of the blade, I have a model with and one without, and I think they add to the grip quite a bit. As for a steel in the ultimate Military, how about something nice, like a D2, would be a bit stronger and still hold a nice edge.
I must say that the Viele I just got the other day is very close to my idea model (the newer one with VG-10), a bit small, but perfect for around campus.
I might also fancy a Military in CF, would be nice, but textured for grip, not polished to be purdy. I would also like to see the Military get the grooves back on the underside of the blade, I have a model with and one without, and I think they add to the grip quite a bit. As for a steel in the ultimate Military, how about something nice, like a D2, would be a bit stronger and still hold a nice edge.
I must say that the Viele I just got the other day is very close to my idea model (the newer one with VG-10), a bit small, but perfect for around campus.
Ideal model: I'd also go for the Wegner model, but I'd want the handle to be a monocoque of formed CF laminate (with a nested liner), bead/sandblasted for texture. It would make for a very nice $300 Wegner Lightweight that only us Wegner addicts would buy. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
In this, handle material is definitely only part of the issue, how the material is implemented is equally important. It doesn't seem to me that you get the full benefit of the high-cost laminates if you use them in a conventional layered "sandwich" construction held together with screws or pins.
If I were restricted to sandwich type construction, then I'd stick to aluminum as a handle material -- it is the lightest of the metals discussed, is strong enough even when thin (the Al scales on my C15 are very thin but the knife is extremely rigid), costs less than most (all?) of the other metals and laminates, and frankly well I just like it. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
Ideal models with Al handles would be something like a solid "R" knife as discussed on the other forum, or as I prefer linerlocks to lockbacks the large version of the Chinese Utility if made the same way as the present medium model (which itself I suspect may displace the Wegner as my favourite daily carry whenever it finally arrives).
In this, handle material is definitely only part of the issue, how the material is implemented is equally important. It doesn't seem to me that you get the full benefit of the high-cost laminates if you use them in a conventional layered "sandwich" construction held together with screws or pins.
If I were restricted to sandwich type construction, then I'd stick to aluminum as a handle material -- it is the lightest of the metals discussed, is strong enough even when thin (the Al scales on my C15 are very thin but the knife is extremely rigid), costs less than most (all?) of the other metals and laminates, and frankly well I just like it. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
Ideal models with Al handles would be something like a solid "R" knife as discussed on the other forum, or as I prefer linerlocks to lockbacks the large version of the Chinese Utility if made the same way as the present medium model (which itself I suspect may displace the Wegner as my favourite daily carry whenever it finally arrives).
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Joe Talmadge
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It's also worth taking into account whether or not the handle material typically has steel liners to increase rigidity. For example, G-10 seems to always have steel liners, but aluminum not always. Which would make a G-10 knife heavier than you would think versus the aluminum knife.
Knives with zytel handles seem to rarely have steel liners. CF I'm not sure, I think they often do have steel liners. Titanium usually doesn't take steel liners.
Joe
Knives with zytel handles seem to rarely have steel liners. CF I'm not sure, I think they often do have steel liners. Titanium usually doesn't take steel liners.
Joe
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AncientSUL
- Member
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am