How do you measure quality?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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sal
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How do you measure quality?

#1

Post by sal »

I posted this question on BladeForums "knife test" section a while ago. Got some interesting response and some surprizing response.



I didn't feel it proper to pursue the issue on Bladeforums because it is a shared site with other makers and I felt if there was "heat", it should be in our own back yard.



I have always set the standards for Spyderco quality. beginning from the edge out. Reliable high performance has always been first and formost, IMO.



1) cut

2) don't break

3) be easy and ergonomic to use

4) be easily accessible when needed.



Then we get into fit, which provides strength and reliablity, and finish which demonstrates attention to detail. Material selection is always being considered.



IMO, A boat with a great finish that sinks under the first wave in my opinion was not quality, but only had the "appearance" of quality.



We are working on "Edge-U-cation" brochures on various topics to share knowledge with those intersted. Quality is one of those topics. Sooo....



How do you measure quality? And why is that important to you?



sal
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Carlos
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#2

Post by Carlos »

1. concept

The first part of quality starts with a design that is optimized for a particular task or set of tasks -- even if that task is just "General Purpose Utility." Much of the appeal of Spyderco's inhouse designs lie in their aura of purpose.


2. material selection

The qualities -- advantages and diadvantages -- of the materials is another important factor of an optimized design. While no blade steel or handle material can be universally considered "the best" -- an optimal design would use "the best for this task."

Basic quality of materials is important too - purity of steels, weave count of the G10, etc.


3. manufacturing

The most obvious part of quality is the physical appearance of the knife. The fit and finish of handle and blade, the smoothness of operation, the solidlity of the lockup. Is it sharp out of the box?


4. handling

Other factors of quality come out in the use of the knife: How does it handle in the hand? Is it balanced? Does it cut? etc.

Holding an edge for a long time is important, but so is ease of resharpening. Ease of cleanup and maintenance are fundamental to a real quality working knife.


In the end, "quality" equates a feeling of confidence in the tool. If it doesn't do what I need it to, or if it is difficult to use, then it will just end up at the bottom of a drawer.
bladezealot
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#3

Post by bladezealot »

man, there is gonna be some different answers here!. i think this is such a subjective subject.for me, like yourself sal, it starts with the edge.after all, that is what a knife is for for me,is to cut.it must have a superb cutting edge and be able to hold same.this means it must be of good blade steel that has been PROPERLY HEAT TREATED.it does not have to be pretty. but it must be functional.as a matter of fact, i tend to shy away from ornate customs because most of my knives are users.of course, it must be well made. even if it is a rustic, or period piece [talking pretty much custom fixed blades here]it must have a good "fit".no solder lines [unless they are meant to be there,i.e. Randall's],no grind marks, obvious things like this. i hesitate to mention finish, because that is a subjective matter. i personally like carbon steel blades on many of my custom fixed blades. as we know, these will stain and rust. i keep mine oiled, but they still get a petina. to me this adds to the character of the knife.i have several friends locally that are in the craftsman guild here that are knifemakers, one just made journeymansmith with the ABS.2 of them make knives that are working knives. form follows function, whereas terry makes more of an "ART" knife. but, of course, all 3 agree on the basics of good fit and finish,proper heat treating, and of course, a superlative edge.i have knives made by each of these makers. i use each and every one.excuse the ramblings here.you get me going about knives....i guess if i had to sum it up:a superlative edge and retention of same.proper fit and "finish".3-form follows function.geez, there are so many little intricate things that are involved here for me...
RLR
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#4

Post by RLR »

a) edge - sharpness, retention, hardness
b) fit and finish - smooth, solid, zero blade play
c) ergos
d) service and aesthetics

RLR
bladezealot
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#5

Post by bladezealot »

well said, carlos! but here is where the subjectiveness comes in. for me, i don't mind if its a little harder to resharpen. i carry a doublestuff on me 24/7 and have bench stones and a 204 at home and carry a 204 in my truck. always ready to sharpen a knife. it relaxs me. also, ease of cleanup is not always a big factor for me. one of my favorite fixed blades for field use is a 10 1/2 inch 5160 blade. it stains easily, but it is superlative in the cutting and edge retention area. i also carry oil in my truck<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>if i expect to be in the field for an extended period, i plan ahead on the oil.matter of fact, i think i'll add that to my belt pouch.just my 2 cents.



Edited by - bladezealot on 8/20/00 11:02:21 AM

Edited by - bladezealot on 8/20/00 11:03:27 AM
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tortoise
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#6

Post by tortoise »

Quality is achieved by:
1. Durability; of the edge, the lock, etc. A knife must first and foremost be able to be used and reasonably maintained (and I mean maintained by a regular person, not a knife knut who thinks he was a 16th century Japanese bladesmith in a past life.)If knives are your hobby, that's great, but a "normal" person has the right to expect the tool to work for him and not the other way around.
2. Usefulness; Collectors knives are, to me, another matter. Few companies have a more "workmanlike" reputation than Spyderco. That's achieved by producing knives that are easy to carry and good for something besides looking at. Think of it this way, urban/suburban dwellers can not walk around with a Bowie on their hip but they still need to cut stuff. In the same way, a Waterford crystal hammer would be beautiful... unless you had to drive a nail.
3. Reasearch; Determining which materials to use, and how to present them for various applications is not accidental. Lack of progress eventually equals loss of quality.
4. Consumer education; For a company to make a quality product, consumers must be satisfied. But, if the ELU buys the wrong knife for his purposes he will be disappointed, even if his purchase might have been a "quality" blade for a different use. It's up to the manufacturer to guide the user. I might not know the best steel for me, or how it should be hardened, etc. The consumer should know what he wants to do, the company should tell him which of their products will fit the bill.
4. Customer support; There's a world full of "quality" products out there. What separates some from others is support. The military knows it. When they buy a new sub, the guys from Electric Boat are on board to work out any bugs and make sure things go smoothly. On the contrary, if there's no support for a product it automatically loses quality. I once chose one brand of fishing reel over another of "higher" quality because the latter company had no U.S. repair facilities. No matter how good something is, it can always fail. The manufacturers ability and willingness to respond is a cornerstone of a quality product.
RDaneel
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#7

Post by RDaneel »

One word, "Spyderco". I am NOT trying to suck up here. Quality is a neverending goal that can never be achieved. There is always something YOU think can be done better. Why I said "Spyderco" is just that determination to make great knives better - new designs, new steels, new materials, new methods.

The bottom line of quality is the product. This includes not just the physical object (knife) but the range of customer service included with the product. For example, "edge-u-cation". When I show a Spyderco product brochure to folks, they are just as impressed with the range of information included in the brochure as they are with the knives.

Keep up the good work. It takes effort to be the best.
Paul Work
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#8

Post by Paul Work »

Design: Is the knife usable for one or more situations?
Materials: Will it stand up to everyday use?
Edge holding: Will it get through a task without going dull?
Ease of sharpening: Does it take longer to sharpen than how long it will cut?
Workmanship: Does everything fit or are there gaps and wobbles?
Overall value: possibly the most important one of all. Do you get your money's worth?

I think that Spyderco passes with flying colors...anyone care to argue?

Paul
Ferret
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#9

Post by Ferret »

How it feels in the hand, how it performs, how it looks.
sam the man..
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#10

Post by sam the man.. »

QUALITY - Here's my opinion.
1) value for money
2) good handling
3) able to performe in demanding situations
3) excellence in production QC
4) good after-sales service
5) endless desire to be innovative
6) constantly able to make room for
improvements.

Sam

have spydies
will travel...
charlie
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#11

Post by charlie »

Quality is: "Knowing what the customer wants and delivering it flawlessy with speed and agility". This is the Boeing definition and it seems to apply to the knife business also.
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john row
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#12

Post by john row »

Lots of great input so far!
I measure quality based on my need in a particular situation. I look for ergonomics. Does the knife feel awkward in my hand?
Does it live up to my expectations - which may often be unrealistic regarding performance - cutting, edge retention?
Does this knife make me feel that it won't let me down?
I own other knives besides Spydercos. One model of another maker fulfills my expectations of it. But, another model from the same manufacturer is disappointing. I own a dozen or so Spydercos and without exception, feel that confidence that the first Spydie gave me.
Spydies may not be the prettiest, may not be the most expensive, etc. But,they, consistently from model to model, work the best of ANY knife around.

John Row

From Golden, Colorado and the knife cuts HAVE caught up to the paper cuts :)
det
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#13

Post by det »

How do you measure quality?
1. Before the sale.
-They look for design and comfort, features (one hand opening, clip, sheath, etc.),fit and finish (especially the edge), materials used, and cost.
2. Actual use after the sale
-Reliability is key. The knife must cut even when slightly neglected, the lock must always lock and never fail. If it is designed to open one handed, it needs to open one handed. Remember that most people are not "knife knuts." Many do not own or do not know how to use a sharpener. If the knife doesn't cut, they blame it on the knife. The knife should be able to stand moderate abuse. While most people here would cringe at the thought of using your knife as a mini pry bar, the average person wouldn't hesitate to do just that(or use the tip as a screwdriver, etc., etc.).
3. Quality of the company
-Continues to strive toward perfection. Improving knifes constantly, even though people may not notice the changes.
Paani
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#14

Post by Paani »

I think the actual action of a folder has the biggest impact on my feelings toward the knife in the long run. Give me smooth opener with no play and a solid lockup and I'm happy.
Ken Lau
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#15

Post by Ken Lau »

Interesting......for me quality is about the finish. Not matter at what price point we are talking about, the product must have a good finish. If I am looking at a FRN handled clipit compared to a more expensive custom colaboration, I would expect the same finish to the folder. Ok, the materials wont be the same because of the difference in price but the way that the parts have been assembled is important.

Also, I would expect good QA so that any problems can be detected before a piece leaves the factory. This includes blade play and marks on the blade itself.

Ergos is really subjective as we all have different shaped hands. So I dont put much weight in that. A quality folder may be great for someone else but may not fit my hand....that doesnt preclude it from being a quality folder.

And as far as sharpness and ability to keep an edge, well thats down to the blade shape and steel that you choose.

In summary, I think for me, its about the finish and assembly.
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#16

Post by Fozzy »

Quality to me starts with how a knife (or other product for that matter) looks. Next is how it 'feels.' The knife has to feel 'right.' Lastly, does the knife perform? I'm not a steel expert so I'll leave that to the engineers. Quality is unfortunately inextricably linked to cost. You do indeed 'get what you pay for.' I guess my point is that quality is highly subjective. If you need a knife for day to day carry and use, do you want to pay $3,000.00 for it??

Ben
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#17

Post by Ken3 »

I'd like to propose two questions for discussion under the "quality" heading.

1. In a market-based economy (no one is forced to buy or supply; prices are set by agreement between the parties), who determines quality---the seller or the buyer?

2. Is there agreement within this forum on a minimum set (perhaps 5, plus or minus 2) of ranked quality characteristics to be measured in a mass-produced knife? (If so, maybe such a list ought to be forwarded to all the providers for their consideration.)

Of course, as dialogue on this new forum has already shown this is an open-ended subject, but I'm curious to what extent there might be consensus.
Alick W
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#18

Post by Alick W »

A definition of quality promoted by one firm of consultants in industrial "quality" is "conformance to requirements" - in other words a Mini offers better quality than a Rolls Royce to a motorist with a small budget. To go with this, you need a very clear view of what particular set of requirements you're trying to meet. It also helps to make it clear to potential customers what the design brief was.

My personal view is far more emotional and subjective. Quality in a knife is :
A smooth action and precise, rock solid lock up that doesn't wear loose.
Excellent ergonomics - it feels instantly right in the hand when you pick it up, with no sharp edges to catch and a natural movement to open and close.
Materials and construction that will not let you down when you ask more of them than is reasonable.
A good finish straight from the machine rather than one where the design of the piece has been polished away with the blemishes.
Visual appeal - a good tool should look true to its purpose - clean simplicity rather than ornate decoration.

As I said, very subjective, you might guess that I also like cars built by SAAB, watches by RADO or Bell & Ross, Industrial grade power tools over DIY kit, and classical Japanese interior design !

Cheers, Alick
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sal
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#19

Post by sal »

I'd like to welcome the new posters to the Spyderco forum. We appreciate your thoughts and time.

Some good input here. The goal is to come up with an "objective", "measurable" and communicable set of standards. Posible?

sal
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dePaul
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#20

Post by dePaul »

Sal, I believe that only time can tell if the quality is there or not. The time tells you if people actually buy the product and if it´s durable enough to withstand the aging process. If it does, you have achieved the quality that you desire. So a touch of catch22. And getting this experience will help you in developing a new model with these preferences.
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