Interesting edge retention results

[Bloke]

I always find these threads interesting but not overly informative because as previously stated by others there are an infinite number of variables and at the end of the day we’re left to draw our own conclusions.

In my experience the average knife user and I certainly fall into this category, wouldn’t have a clue as to which blade steel he was using if it wasn’t clearly marked. This obviously changes when it comes to sharpening and even then we’d more than likely be guessing.

Things change dramatically though when it comes to specific tasks and I wouldn’t want a H1 filleting knife if I was looking to fillet half a dozen fish in one session. And again the variables come into play. For example, Gringo may well fillet his half dozen fish running his H1 blade over the rib bones and at best only glance a backbone and end up with a knife that’s basically as sharp as when he started. I on the other hand cut through rib bones and the H1 blade would be lucky to see out one fish.

I that particular scenario I certainly don’t need to start with a highly refined hair whittling edge nor finish with one so I’d much rather invest half an hour to sharpen a high carbide blade that’s filleted forty fish as opposed to touching up a ‘lesser’ steel forty times.

In conclusion I’d have to say, to some extent I am a steel snob. :o

[willc]

I love that we have access to all these steels with Spyderco.
Just this week I got a Native 5 in S90V from CS and traded a GEC for the Sage with comp lock.
These are my fun weekend type knives but at work I mostly go with aus8, bd-1, inox, and 8cr steels.

Some days I use my knives pretty hard and I sharpen a good bit less than 15 per side so they cut well.
When the s110v Manix came out I used that as a work knife for over a year and didn’t get much more advantage than longer sharpening sessions when it dulled.

I still love getting new steel and trying it out but they are not what many make them out to be.

How is your knife used at work? If it's subject to contacting other metals, impacts, or side stressing the edge I suggest a medium to high carbide non stainless, except maxamet. CPM M4 is ideal among currently available knife steels.

I build scaffolding so it varies, rope, zip ties , netting , and plastic sheathing are my most cut materials.
I have a GB1 and PM2 in m4 and with my sweat they don’t cut it on the job.

My Cara Cara and Meadowlark hawkbill get high marks cause they don’t stain as other companies 8cr stains and in my experience Spydercos 8cr is probably the best in the business.

Also when I do dull these “lesser steels” I can get them back to razor sharp with an old cut off wheel, that I keep in my tool pouch, in less than a minute.

[jpm2]

I love that we have access to all these steels with Spyderco.
Just this week I got a Native 5 in S90V from CS and traded a GEC for the Sage with comp lock.
These are my fun weekend type knives but at work I mostly go with aus8, bd-1, inox, and 8cr steels.

Some days I use my knives pretty hard and I sharpen a good bit less than 15 per side so they cut well.
When the s110v Manix came out I used that as a work knife for over a year and didn’t get much more advantage than longer sharpening sessions when it dulled.

I still love getting new steel and trying it out but they are not what many make them out to be.

How is your knife used at work? If it's subject to contacting other metals, impacts, or side stressing the edge I suggest a medium to high carbide non stainless, except maxamet. CPM M4 is ideal among currently available knife steels.

I build scaffolding so it varies, rope, zip ties , netting , and plastic sheathing are my most cut materials.
I have a GB1 and PM2 in m4 and with my sweat they don’t cut it on the job.

My Cara Cara and Meadowlark hawkbill get high marks cause they don’t stain as other companies 8cr stains and in my experience Spydercos 8cr is probably the best in the business.

Also when I do dull these “lesser steels” I can get them back to razor sharp with an old cut off wheel, that I keep in my tool pouch, in less than a minute.

I've been waiting 40 years on a stainless that meets my expectations, good luck.
As for m4, I've learned to wipe it down every hour or so when it hasn't been used and I'm (it's) drenched with sweat.

[MichaelScott]

Lance said, “
It is a very difficult subject to debate though because there is just so much that affects how a given steel performs for a given individual and there is very little standardized testing. Collectively we are a group of people with different sharpening skills, different edge angles and different ideas of "sharp" cutting different material with different force and technique, all of whom have different expectations and biases. Then we all compare notes and are surprised at the discrepancy of opinion. :rolleyes: :p”

I think this is the best analysis of the afi steel discussions.

As an average knife user I seem to be very happy with the steels I have: VG10, S30V & N690Co

[500Nitro]

Fascinating discussion.

I would love to be able to try various blades / steels on what I consider to be a very tough test,
that of Water Buffalo hides. Up to an inch thick but also dirt, grit, mud etc ingrained in the hair.

We normally have quite a few Green River Skinners (High carbon Steel), hold an edge if sharpened
but very quick to get the edge back when slightly dulled. Great shape as well.

A couple of pics of the hides in questions.

[vivi]

I always find these threads interesting but not overly informative because as previously stated by others there are an infinite number of variables and at the end of the day we’re left to draw our own conclusions.

In my experience the average knife user and I certainly fall into this category, wouldn’t have a clue as to which blade steel he was using if it wasn’t clearly marked. This obviously changes when it comes to sharpening and even then we’d more than likely be guessing.

Things change dramatically though when it comes to specific tasks and I wouldn’t want a H1 filleting knife if I was looking to fillet half a dozen fish in one session. And again the variables come into play. For example, Gringo may well fillet his half dozen fish running his H1 blade over the rib bones and at best only glance a backbone and end up with a knife that’s basically as sharp as when he started. I on the other hand cut through rib bones and the H1 blade would be lucky to see out one fish.

I that particular scenario I certainly don’t need to start with a highly refined hair whittling edge nor finish with one so I’d much rather invest half an hour to sharpen a high carbide blade that’s filleted forty fish as opposed to touching up a ‘lesser’ steel forty times.

In conclusion I’d have to say, to some extent I am a steel snob. :o

There are certainly situations where steel makes a big difference. Corrosion resistance is a big one. Edge geometry and refinement means nothing there, it all comes down to steel. I wouldn't want an S7 folding knife for marine use.

[Bloke]

There are certainly situations where steel makes a big difference. Corrosion resistance is a big one. Edge geometry and refinement means nothing there, it all comes down to steel. I wouldn't want an S7 folding knife for marine use.

100% Vivi.

And as others have said the humble ‘lesser’ steels are more than adequate for our general every day use.

It’s only a bunch of knife knuts that are spoilt for choice that would have this discussion in the first place. Thought the fact remains and surly we’d all have to agree that certain types of steels shine but only in hard prolonged use and adverse applications. :)

[500Nitro]

Bloke

Well said.

I'm sure my example of Green River knives fits your view. Certainly not the best steel but they certainly do their job!

[The Mastiff]

Vivi wrote: ↑
20 May 2018 23:11
There are certainly situations where steel makes a big difference. Corrosion resistance is a big one. Edge geometry and refinement means nothing there, it all comes down to steel. I wouldn't want an S7 folding knife for marine use.

100% Vivi.

And as others have said the humble ‘lesser’ steels are more than adequate for our general every day use.

It’s only a bunch of knife knuts that are spoilt for choice that would have this discussion in the first place. Thought the fact remains and surly we’d all have to agree that certain types of steels shine but only in hard prolonged use and adverse applications. :)

I agree with the above. I am without question a steel junky but I try to be as close to the truth in my rantings and pronouncements and feel practicality is pretty important. S7 does do what it's designers want it to do including making good knives. Despite it being near the top in it's performance category it shouldn't be sold as the best steel unless the" best at what" is explained. We mostly have very experienced knife users here. Some much more so than me. Despite that we have to keep in mind there are novice users reading as well and being practical is important.

Joe

[Bloke]

Bloke

Well said.

I'm sure my example of Green River knives fits your view. Certainly not the best steel but they certainly do their job!

They’re great knives Nigel. Genuine bang for buck and I wouldn’t mind a dollar or two for the times I’ve had an old timber handled Green River in my hand and a fine cut 12” F. Dick steel, handle down so it wouldn’t fall out in my back pocket dressing a little Fallow, young nanny goat or lamb. :)

I have at least one of the swept back skinners you mentioned floating around somewhere.

[500Nitro]

Interesting comment "bunch of knife knuts that are spoilt for choice that would have this discussion in the first place."
Doesn't just apply to steels, reading some of the other things on forums re detail (centered blades etc) amazes me.

Bloke,
"Genuine bang for buck". Agree.

I do carry my Endura with me hunting BUT when you have 2-20 Buffalo down on the ground and working flat out to slice and dice
the meat you really need something that works for everyone - anyone can grab a GR skinner and use it.

Re these other good steels on these very nice knives, although I'm anal on my gear - in terms of not losing it,
accidents happen and occasionally things do get lost. It becomes and expensive process if you lose a knife a year
with a price tag of $100 and upwards.

In addition, as Bloke mentioned, being able to quickly put an edge back on with a fine cut 12” F. Dick steel
is important.

It may amaze some here but the bloke I shoot a lot of Buffalo with still uses and foot peddled circular stone sharpener
when he gives all his knives a good sharpening and it works !

[Pelagic]

It is a very difficult subject to debate though because there is just so much that affects how a given steel performs for a given individual and there is very little standardized testing. Collectively we are a group of people with different sharpening skills, different edge angles and different ideas of "sharp" cutting different material with different force and technique, all of whom have different expectations and biases. Then we all compare notes and are surprised at the discrepancy of opinion

Absolutely well said.

Fascinating discussion.

I would love to be able to try various blades / steels on what I consider to be a very tough test,
that of Water Buffalo hides. Up to an inch thick but also dirt, grit, mud etc ingrained in the hair.

I'd be interested to see something like that as well.

I'd also be interested in seeing a cutting test where 2 steels were tested, with steel A being a high wear resistance, high edge retention steel (like 10v or s110v), and steel B being a high toughness steel (like 3v, infi, or s7). I'd like to see one test focusing on push cutting and the other on slicing just to see how notable the difference in results would be.

[The Meat man]

Count me in as another voice in favor of this line of thinking. I believe that many of the current high vanadium steels have their place but I feel like we went through (or are still going through) a stage where almost everyone was looking at high V, high wear resistance steels as the "better" steels and everything else as "lesser" steels. As Sal has said many times though...it depends.

Usually, the characteristics I am after in a steel are found in what are commonly viewed today as "lesser steels". I have carried Spyderco's BD1 and 8cr13 a lot this year and I am very fond of both of them. Of the two, I probably prefer 8cr13. I am a often perplexed when I read someone saying that they would like to buy "such and such" knife but can't do it because it is produced in a junk steel like 8cr13. That just hasn't been my impression of the steel...at all

It is a very difficult subject to debate though because there is just so much that affects how a given steel performs for a given individual and there is very little standardized testing. Collectively we are a group of people with different sharpening skills, different edge angles and different ideas of "sharp" cutting different material with different force and technique, all of whom have different expectations and biases. Then we all compare notes and are surprised at the discrepancy of opinion. :rolleyes: :p

Very good points.

I really appreciate cutting tests like Ankerson's and I think there is some valuable information there. However the bottom line is that while there may be a "best" steel for one person's use, there is no such thing as an across-the-board "best" steel for everyone.

[500Nitro]

Re "It is a very difficult subject to debate though because there is just so much that affects how a given steel performs for a given individual"

I can add another witnessed dimension. My mate and I can do the same cuts on an animal but he can effortlessly cut through say the rump and around while I might take 2 cuts. The difference in experience doesn't account for it all. I think how you hold it, blade angle affect it.

As above said, this makes it harder to do standardised testing.