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Thread: Idea for a hard use folder

  1. #61
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    The short answer is yes, because just like the OP noted, this is already happening to some extent with current designs, most noticeably the linerless FRN models. As you push a knife closer to its limit, the least rigid thing between the applied force (your hand) and the reacting force (the part of the knife stuck in something) will start to elastically deform. The "breaking" part is where you keep pushing beyond the elastic limit of the part in question, which might just bend if it is a "soft" material (first pic), or might break if it is a "hard" material (second pic). If you designed such a mechanism with a force threshold (the force that causes it to displace) above that of current offerings, then you just designed a stronger knife in general, without a need for the displacement feature. More likely, however, the displacement feature would require that the force threshold was much lower than that of current offerings. So the result would be that you could accomplish fewer tasks, but be assured your knife would let you know before it was close to "breaking." You could call it "The Tap Out."

    Just one more thing to note, the argument against the naysayers of "hard use" folders is contained within the shovel/spatula example. No one has bothered to address the issue of a tool useful for digging rocks AND for cooking eggs because these things are rarely being done at the same time. We do, however, have a spork, because people are often thrust into situations were having a fork and having a spoon is useful in close succession. Is it the best fork in the world? No, but the reduction in forky performance is accepted for the inclusion of a spoon. A hard use folder follows this same principle, because you CAN BE (often or seldom, depending) thrust into situations where having a knife and having a pry bar is useful in close succession. So for some, it is useful to know how a particular knife will do when pressed into service as a pry bar. It is irrelevant for others to say "well I NEVER find myself in that situation, so why is this even necessary?" I can acknowledge, though, that most people concerned with hard use folders just want to feel badass opening letters.



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvenuto View Post
    The short answer is yes, because just like the OP noted, this is already happening to some extent with current designs, most noticeably the linerless FRN models. As you push a knife closer to its limit, the least rigid thing between the applied force (your hand) and the reacting force (the part of the knife stuck in something) will start to elastically deform. The "breaking" part is where you keep pushing beyond the elastic limit of the part in question, which might just bend if it is a "soft" material (first pic), or might break if it is a "hard" material (second pic). If you designed such a mechanism with a force threshold (the force that causes it to displace) above that of current offerings, then you just designed a stronger knife in general, without a need for the displacement feature. More likely, however, the displacement feature would require that the force threshold was much lower than that of current offerings. So the result would be that you could accomplish fewer tasks, but be assured your knife would let you know before it was close to "breaking." You could call it "The Tap Out."

    Just one more thing to note, the argument against the naysayers of "hard use" folders is contained within the shovel/spatula example. No one has bothered to address the issue of a tool useful for digging rocks AND for cooking eggs because these things are rarely being done at the same time. We do, however, have a spork, because people are often thrust into situations were having a fork and having a spoon is useful in close succession. Is it the best fork in the world? No, but the reduction in forky performance is accepted for the inclusion of a spoon. A hard use folder follows this same principle, because you CAN BE (often or seldom, depending) thrust into situations where having a knife and having a pry bar is useful in close succession. So for some, it is useful to know how a particular knife will do when pressed into service as a pry bar. It is irrelevant for others to say "well I NEVER find myself in that situation, so why is this even necessary?" I can acknowledge, though, that most people concerned with hard use folders just want to feel badass opening letters.
    Thanks again for another good post. Interesting ideas.

    I believe a lot of the resistance to the entire idea of hard use folders is based in fear that as more offerings are made to be "hard use", there will be less offerings that they consider practical. I think some folks just fear that trend. Im not too worried. Knives are tools and someone is always going to strive to produce a tool that works best for any specific job. I am all for the research and innovation that goes into making overbuilt, hard use folders as long as I'm not required to buy one. I also believe that (though the thread got sidetracked in that direction) a typical overbuilt folder wasn't what evilD was pushing. He was talking about a lock that could withstand more force without failure. I support this kind of thinking.

    Btw...."forky performance"?! Hehehe. I like it!
    Last edited by Surfingringo; 04-12-2014 at 05:30 AM.

  3. #63
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    Again, I'll mention that just like with a hammer, one can achieve having a high performance knife and a decent prybar tool but that doesn't mean the knife blade should be used to pry, there are many other options which make more sense. At this point, the blade steel seems to be the weak point of using the knife blade as a pry tool, not the pivot. People break tips fairly regularly, but how often do you even hear of a pivot or handle scale breaking?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfingringo View Post
    I believe a lot of the resistance to the entire idea of hard use folders is based in fear that as more offerings are made to be "hard use", there will be less offerings that they consider practical.
    Very true. You can see the trend with Spyderco offerings. Can you say thicker stock in general? Thicker tips that greatly reduce utility on certain high-volume models? For my uses, the Centofante 3 and 4 hit the sweet spot for EDC and I expect the 3 to go the way of the dodo, in both senses, soon. I see it as a remnant of the days when knives were made to cut well and to heck with warrantee costs. The more people clamor for folding pry-bars, the more I see normal knives getting thicker ... and I'd like to have more choices. I guess the bright side is that I'm saving lots of money. For example, I was really excited when I heard about the Enuff. When they actually came out, I was equally disappointed and never bothered to buy even one, let alone the whole set. Those things should be half as thick. Half. But no, let's build it hell for stout even though it isn't big enough to make a decent pry bar. It should have been named the "Way Too Much". Sorry if I'm ranting, but I do feel strongly about the issue. I don't buy thick knives and I like buying knives. I wish I could buy more of them ...

    Gordon

  5. #65
    Spyderco Forum Registered User dbcad's Avatar
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    Read thru this thread a couple of times now

    Quite enjoy your original question David Simpler and more durable is always a good development

    Materials and properties thereof are the big question as has been noted already

    Custom plastics are being developed constantly for industry, look at the types of nylon alone that are available. I'm sure that a material could be developed that "fits" the requirements outlined in the original question, at the very least it is possible to push the current technology barrier.

    Hard numbers for properties would be desired by any such developer. I'm a firm believer that if enough demand(money) is devoted, eventually the job would be done. Unaware of any material that fits your citeria currently.
    Charlie

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  6. #66
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    Gordon

    With any design there are trade-offs, some would like better edge geometry, some would like more safety factor. I can understand your frustration with the "creep" in design trend, if we can call it that. That is, with enough "tough use" folders out there, that design philosophy becomes the new normal, as opposed to one end of the spectrum. I do still think that spyderco has many options in the decent slicer category, although these tend to be more utilitarian models. Trends such a these have a way of swinging back the other direction, however, and in 10 years your wishes may be granted.

  7. #67
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Donut's Avatar
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    I won't be paying $100 extra to use my knife as a pry bar when I can pay $20 for a pry bar. I do have a couple pry bars that can be used as knives, but I'd rather not have an edge that can remove my finger while prying.

    Before I got into Spyderco's, I used a buck folder to pry something and cut myself very deeply on my finger when the lock failed. I don't ever expect to do that again.

    I would like to try an Endura that doesn't have a distal taper. It would be interesting to see David's idea realized.
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  8. #68
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    I kinda like hard use folders. I'm a Lt on a truck co. 25 years on the job, the bulk of our tools on the load are cutting or prying...... I really like a knife that can handle those tasks. Sure I carry a tool on fire calls , and in my bunkers I keep a ten inch motorcycle pry bar. Let me tell you that ten inches has pried windows and doors,sure not steel doors and frames with 2 deadbolts. But plenty of wood doors with knob locks and even some steel doors with knob locks.

    For folders I often carry an XM 18 or Strider with Enduras,Natives and Delicas as back ups.

    I've taken to also carrying of late my Strider DB, a oh maybe 8 inch fixed blade,that sucker can pry way outside its size as well. The reason I carry it is because often,like ems calls ,inspecting and so on,I'm quite aways from the load, and have no tools. I like to be ready,hate to be up in a highrise on a ems job and find the pt. locked in a bathroom or the like.

    I guess I could walk around with the tire iron on my belt some how,but the DB is more my style . I like folders like the XM 18 for off duty,easy to carry at the gym and such.

    I had high hopes for the Tuff but it's not really to my liking. Oh I know this is a Spyderco forum and I've bought close to 40 or 50 since '91 . I give them as gifts and years back bought my crew all Delicas. One of my guys is hard on folders both on the job and off on his. Side gigs doing home remodeling , a SS Delica used to last him maybe 6 months,before he Broke it, yes many here would call him an abuser ,wrong tool choice and so forth and you might be right,but his current hard use folder has lasted him 3 years now, prying hacking and yes even cutting. Works for him.

  9. #69
    Spyderco Forum Registered User robot37's Avatar
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    It is questions like those that the OP posed that make me seriously reconsider why I even visit these forums. Please, make it all stop. Use the right tool for the job, for crying out loud.

  10. #70
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Evil D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robot37 View Post
    It is questions like those that the OP posed that make me seriously reconsider why I even visit these forums. Please, make it all stop. Use the right tool for the job, for crying out loud.
    Well, I'm glad I could add some spice to your day. Two things though:

    1, If you don't like it here, there's the door. Nobody will miss you and your 6 posts of contribution to the forum. Considering the 6th one was this useless comment, lets hope the other 5 were more meaningful.

    2, If you don't like the thread topic, don't bother reading it, and further more if you don't like it, spare us your input unless it's constructive, which so far it hasn't been.



    Who decided what the right tool for the job was anyway? You? I don't think so. If I wanna pound nails with a knife, I'll do so, and if that knife happens to be built in a way that it works for that task, then I'd say it's the right tool for the job. You ever hear of creativity? Invention? Or do you just stick to the mold and follow the beaten path because it's a safe bet?

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  11. #71
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Cameron's Avatar
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    I want a knife to cut. So something that fits the hand, and cuts like a razor for as long as possible between sharpenings. So that is why I buy Spydercos, some people like small, folding, partially sharpened crow bars, so they buy other manufacturer's products.

    Cameron
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  12. #72
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Evil D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron View Post
    I want a knife to cut. So something that fits the hand, and cuts like a razor for as long as possible between sharpenings. So that is why I buy Spydercos, some people like small folding partially sharpened crow bars, so they buy other manufacturer's products.

    Cameron
    Neither the Techno nor Tuff excel as slicing machines. Both have overly thick blades and overly obtuse grinds. The Tuff was built as a hard use folder. Seems to me Spyderco makes a knife for every purpose, no?

    Small folding pry bar:




    Any other haters wanna chime in or can we discuss this with some constructive criticism instead of insults? The question wasn't "do you like hard use folders" or "would you like to argue with me about the uses of hard use folders" so if you guys have nothing to contribute what's the point of clogging up my thread?

    SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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  13. #73
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Cameron's Avatar
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    So now you know why I don't own a Techno, Tuff, or a whale rescue blade....

    Cameron
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  14. #74
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Evil D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron View Post
    I want a knife to cut. So something that fits the hand, and cuts like a razor for as long as possible between sharpenings. So that is why I buy Spydercos, some people like small, folding, partially sharpened crow bars, so they buy other manufacturer's products.

    Cameron
    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron View Post
    So now you know why I don't own a Techno, Tuff, or a whale rescue blade....

    Cameron
    Well, you did say "that is why you buy Spydercos", but even Spyderco see the need and use for hard use folders, or they obviously wouldn't make and sell them would they? Seems to me that people who do like small folding partially sharpened pry bars buy Technos and Tuffs.

    We can argue about this stupid crap all day, or we can leave out the like or dislike part of this topic and instead focus on making such a knife. For the record I never put up a poll to see who would buy one, nor did I ask Spyderco to make one. It was a hypothetical question about the possibility of making a knife in a way that it basically had a fail safe built in. That kind of tech could be applied to ANY knife. A Delica may not be defined as a hard use folder but I'm sure somewhere there's a guy right now beating his with a stick trying to split wood with it. If a technology were created to prevent the knife from breaking from a topic like this, why is that such a bad thing? I swear some of you guys have tunnel vision and completely lack imagination.

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  15. #75
    Spyderco Forum Registered User bearfacedkiller's Avatar
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    Nobody liked the idea of using the pivot as a fuse, and carrying a spare pivot in the handle somehow? Might be a safety risk but it could be engineered to break just before anything else broke like the blade or handle.

    Quote Originally Posted by bearfacedkiller View Post
    Anywho, what about the idea of an engineered weak link. Maybe design the pivot to fail at a point just before any other part of the knife would fail. I do a lot of jeeping and this is an idea used in trucks so that a part which is cheaper/easier to replace breaks before a part that is more expensive/harder to replace. Trying to repair a truck on the trail can be a challenge and if the part that breaks is small, cheap and easy to replace then you can back to wheeling faster. "Weak links" in a driveshaft are one example. http://image.fourwheeler.com/f/91766...aft_cupler.jpg
    Maybe engineer a pivot to break just before any other part of the knife and design the handle to hold one or two spare pivots and a small tool to replace them. My concern would be the safety issues that come from designing a knife to break on purpose at a given point and the liability that would come from that.

  16. #76
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    The Techno is a fine slicer, it's just thick stock and small so it's unique. It is very thin at the edge.

  17. #77
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Cameron's Avatar
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    Evil D, you may have read too much into my post, I'm certainly not deriding your ideas. The idea that technology, materials and designs will improve and in the future we will have very light small knives that are stronger than current fixed blades is a given, and I will probably own one or twenty.

    That said, people seem to put too much emphasis on "hard use" this or that. Current folders from good manufacturers are incredibly strong and made from state of the art materials, I have never even heard of a quality folder failing when it has been used to cut. So, I think we can safely assume that companies like Spyderco will continue to push the envelope with designs and materials so that in the futures knives would make people today sractch their heads in disbelief.

    I just bought a Manix in XHP, M4, and S110V, a guy who carries a Para2 in S30V asked, "Why?" when I already had a couple in S30V. My answer is that the Manix in XHP was closer to a lightsaber than anything else I own. My point was that a folder with a new, physics defying lock design made from unobtainium will be awesome. However, at the end of the day, for a knife, it is only the "edge" that is important. Everything else should be just what's needed to put the edge to work.

    Cameron
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  18. #78
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Evil D's Avatar
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    Cameron I agree with all that, and I certainly don't put too much stock into hard use everything. This thread was derailed long ago and maybe I named the thread wrong and asked for it. My point was just an idea for materials and a lock that would reach a very high level of stress but then flex instead of break or damage. Maybe it's a needless idea...I just thought it was interesting discussion but of course too many people missed the point and decided to go on about the right tool and carrying pry bars.

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  19. #79
    Spyderco Forum Registered User SolidState's Avatar
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    Not to beat a dead horse, but I still haven't seen the name of a single material that can fulfill any of the desires outlined in the beginning or the following aspects of the thread.

    I don't really know of any either. I'm not claiming to be smart, but I do geek out on materials - I read the scientific journals and always think of the pertinence to knife design. I just haven't seen much along these lines.

    I have seen some neat stuff in terms of vanderwaals materials that would make it impossible to slip onto a blade from the handle, and would make it possible to stick your knife to things like a gecko sticks to them; but that doesn't pertain to the needs of the OP.

    If we want to get this figured out, we will need materials.
    "Nothing is so fatal to the progress of the human mind as to suppose that our views of science are ultimate; that there are no mysteries in nature; that our triumphs are complete, and that there are no new worlds to conquer."
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  20. #80
    Spyderco Forum Registered User robot37's Avatar
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    Here's some constructive criticism for the OP:
    Stressing a METAL component to its yield point will result in plastic deformation, anything beyond that risks fracture.
    So: NO, there is not a single magic component that will give you what you are asking for. What you are going to need is a complex system of springs & levers to indicate when the pivot is about to break.
    Basically you are looking for a torque wrench.

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