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Thread: Idea for a hard use folder

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User Evil D's Avatar
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    Idea for a hard use folder

    Usually the issue with a true hard use folder is that (obviously) the pivot area and/or lock suffers damage and fails. What if the handle/lock/pivot were designed in such a way and used materials that allowed for a ridiculous amount of flex/twist/bending/etc, and then this material being used would return back to it's original shape? What if the lock being used was one that allowed for a very high amount of self adjustment, that would self adjust to a certain degree during this flexing to keep the blade locked, but then when the handle material returned to it's original shape the lock would also return to a normal area of wear/adjustment? What if the pivot itself was also designed so that it could not be ripped from this handle no matter how much flex occurred (obviously nothing is indestructible, you can't twist the handle from the blade 360 degrees and not expect something to happen)?

    I'm no materials expert, but surely there is something out there that a handle could be made of that has properties like this. You would get a knife that could take a ridiculous beating but have the ability to absorb impact and flex so the damage threshold isn't crossed resulting in a failure of the pivot or lock. What kind of lock could provide this kind of adjustment/wear? Does anyone think this is even possible or am I just dreaming?

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    Look at the Cold Steel Tri-Ad for a lock which allows for high wear and adjustment and moves loads away from the direct lock interfaces.

  3. #3
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Blerv's Avatar
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    I have no desire to baton and otherwise abuse a folder. If I was going to pick one besides something like a Tuff, what you are describing seems to be the FRN linerless Salt knives. Not sure how they would respond to thousands of pounds of impact but FRN seems the most elastic of the handle materials. The blade will snap prior to the pivot area, speculatively of course.
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    Spyderco Forum Registered User Evil D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blerv View Post
    I have no desire to baton and otherwise abuse a folder. If I was going to pick one besides something like a Tuff, what you are describing seems to be the FRN linerless Salt knives. Not sure how they would respond to thousands of pounds of impact but FRN seems the most elastic of the handle materials. The blade will snap prior to the pivot area, speculatively of course.
    The linerless FRN knives are what got me thinking of this idea, but I don't think FRN or the lock are quite up to the task. I don't think it would take much change to make it possible though.

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User Apophis's Avatar
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    It's an interesting question, but personally if I'm going to do anything even a little bit questionable with a knife, it will be with one of my fixed blades...

    I am curious what kind of real world uses would be too much for something like a ti framelock though?

    It also seems like having a design that allows for significant flex/bending/etc... would also be self-defeating since it reduces the leverage you can actually apply to the blade? But maybe I'm not picturing it right.
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    Spyderco Forum Registered User gull wing's Avatar
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    Another vote for the Tri Ad lock. It's a lockback but it has a stop pin to absorb chopping. The lock arm has a slot in the pivot hole for automatic adjustment if the "hook" of the lock arm moves down from wear.

    That is if you like CS knives.
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  7. #7
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Evil D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apophis View Post
    It's an interesting question, but personally if I'm going to do anything even a little bit questionable with a knife, it will be with one of my fixed blades...

    I am curious what kind of real world uses would be too much for something like a ti framelock though?

    It also seems like having a design that allows for significant flex/bending/etc... would also be self-defeating since it reduces the leverage you can actually apply to the blade? But maybe I'm not picturing it right.
    That's a good point, so it would have to be rigid enough to not be a noodle in your hand, but resilient enough to flex when really leaned on or put through hard impact like chopping or batonning.

    The point with this idea is just that, things break because they're rigid. If you intentionally design something to have a usable amount of flex, can you then prevent damage from happening?

    SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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    Spyderco Forum Registered User Apophis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil D View Post
    If you intentionally design something to have a usable amount of flex, can you then prevent damage from happening?
    I think I know what you mean better now, a blade steel and frame that are very strong but that will still flex under very high lateral loads? Hope others can weigh in.

    For me, I use these two for very different things and they both carry fine.

    -Nate

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    In regards to "why not use a fixed blade" .

    The reason you carry folders is because you can't carry a fixed blade, they are in ever way inferior aside from being easier/legal to carry when fixed blades can't.

    FRN is extremely soft compared to the lock materials which means you can not transfer loads to it.

  10. #10
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Donut's Avatar
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    Gull, it sounds like the Tatanka is going to have a similar lock to that. I'm interested to see how well that lock works.
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  11. #11
    Spyderco Forum Registered User gull wing's Avatar
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    Similar but different.
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    Spyderco Forum Registered User chuck_roxas45's Avatar
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    I hate to admit it but I'm with Cliff on this one.
    I always heard that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but then you catch even more flies with poop



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  13. #13
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Evil D's Avatar
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    Yeah I guess some kind of metal that has a good amount of flex before cracking/breaking would work too. Honestly I hate how people are so quick to suggest a fixed blade...that's the easy way out and I'm not a beaten path kind of guy. I like folders because they fold, it's the engineering and mechanics of it all that attracts me. I admire the usability of a fixed blade, but they bore me to tears...big slab of metal ground into an edge. Usable, but boring. Pivots, bushings, locks, pins, all different and requiring a high level of precision to work in just the right way to be brilliant. If we all just gravitated to the easiest solution, we'd still be driving horse drawn carriages to work.

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User ASmitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil D View Post
    Yeah I guess some kind of metal that has a good amount of flex before cracking/breaking would work too. Honestly I hate how people are so quick to suggest a fixed blade...that's the easy way out and I'm not a beaten path kind of guy. I like folders because they fold, it's the engineering and mechanics of it all that attracts me. I admire the usability of a fixed blade, but they bore me to tears...big slab of metal ground into an edge. Usable, but boring. Pivots, bushings, locks, pins, all different and requiring a high level of precision to work in just the right way to be brilliant. If we all just gravitated to the easiest solution, we'd still be driving horse drawn carriages to work.
    This sums up my own interest in knives in a big way.
    "A flute with no holes is not a flute. A donut with no hole, is a danish."

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User Apophis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil D View Post
    ...that's the easy way out and I'm not a beaten path kind of guy. I like folders because they fold, it's the engineering and mechanics of it all that attracts me. I admire the usability of a fixed blade, but they bore me to tears...
    I can respect what you are saying about innovation a lot. I shouldn't assume that it can't be done just because it hasn't.

    I've been loosely "into" in knives for about 5 yrs now, and the first four I was mostly interested in fixed blades and kitchen equip, so I don't think they're boring at all. In fact, I've just always viewed them as essential. "Hard use" has always meant fixed for me because I haven't seen a folder that i'd want to baton, pry, chop, throw, etc... I'll try to broaden what I think of as the scope of work for my folders now. I am amazed by the diversity of choices now that I've joined the dark side, Nowhere near run out of things to try out yet.

    -OT- Your Vallotton review answered my main question in the first line or so, 4mm thick almost the length of the blade sounds like a zombie brain stabber for sure, lol. Very interesting design.
    -Nate

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  16. #16
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Donut's Avatar
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    From what I've read about the durability of the Endura 3's, that's a blade where the handle will flex and take a lot of abuse and the handle has to break to stop the knife.

    The Salt series is built around the Endura/Delica 3 platform.
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    Personally, I think it makes more sense to attach a separate strong but light pry bar or something of the sort to a knife design. Like where a backspacer goes but one that runs further up and can extend out in opposite direction of the knife blade. It could handle any serious prying one needs to do if designed properly and if something should go wrong it won't mess with the pivot or lock of the knife. You can make anything a multi-tool.

  18. #18
    Spyderco Forum Registered User mark greenman's Avatar
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    I'm always curious, what is this "hard use" that people have in mind, that requires a dedicated, "hard use folder?"

    The standard line I always hear is, "it's to put up with anything I throw at it in case (the folder) is all I have."

    While on an emotional level that might make sense, from a practical standpoint I've yet to hear of an example of when that makes sense. If prying is required, a very effective keychain Titanium prybar can be had for $15- and surely any situation in which you will need to be prying with your knife, you will be carrying your keys.

    "What if I need to pry open a door?" is another one I read quite often. Well, a keychain prybar won't pry open a door, but I'm skeptical that a 8" long knife of any construction will either. I have a 28" Prybar that I've used to pry open a few doors, and even with that amount of leverage, it was no cake walk. In the time it takes to pry open a door with an 8" knife, the vast majority of residential locks could easily be picked by a pair of Bogota Lockpicks kept in your wallet. Or you could retrieve a prybar from your car, which is where I keep mine. Or break a window, which will be cheaper to replace then a door, and much faster.

    Then when it comes to batoning, I'm once again extremely skeptical. An Alox Vic Farmer weighs 3.0 oz's, and comes with a very effective saw blade, in addition to prying and cutting tools. It can easily be used to saw straight through 3" diameter wood, and can be used to weaken branches up to 5" thick enough to allow you to snap them in half, exposing the dry wood inside:
    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...g-log-and-fire

    For the weight of many of these "hard use" folders you could carry an entire tool set. The Tuff, at 6.3oz's, is the exact weight of a Vic Farmer + Endura FFG. Meanwhile, a ZT 0300 weighs 8.1 oz's - enough for a Vic Farmer, a Military, a Ti Prybar, a set of lockpicks, and a Photon II led, with grams to spare.

    So I have to ask, what is this hard use scenario that I'm missing? Because to me, optimizing a folding knife for "hard use" makes about as much sense as making a handgun heavier in order to optimize its pistol whipping ability.

  19. #19
    Spyderco Forum Registered User chuck_roxas45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark greenman View Post
    I'm always curious, what is this "hard use" that people have in mind, that requires a dedicated, "hard use folder?"

    The standard line I always hear is, "it's to put up with anything I throw at it in case (the folder) is all I have."

    While on an emotional level that might make sense, from a practical standpoint I've yet to hear of an example of when that makes sense. If prying is required, a very effective keychain Titanium prybar can be had for $15- and surely any situation in which you will need to be prying with your knife, you will be carrying your keys.

    "What if I need to pry open a door?" is another one I read quite often. Well, a keychain prybar won't pry open a door, but I'm skeptical that a 8" long knife of any construction will either. I have a 28" Prybar that I've used to pry open a few doors, and even with that amount of leverage, it was no cake walk. In the time it takes to pry open a door with an 8" knife, the vast majority of residential locks could easily be picked by a pair of Bogota Lockpicks kept in your wallet. Or you could retrieve a prybar from your car, which is where I keep mine. Or break a window, which will be cheaper to replace then a door, and much faster.

    Then when it comes to batoning, I'm once again extremely skeptical. An Alox Vic Farmer weighs 3.0 oz's, and comes with a very effective saw blade, in addition to prying and cutting tools. It can easily be used to saw straight through 3" diameter wood, and can be used to weaken branches up to 5" thick enough to allow you to snap them in half, exposing the dry wood inside:
    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...g-log-and-fire

    For the weight of many of these "hard use" folders you could carry an entire tool set. The Tuff, at 6.3oz's, is the exact weight of a Vic Farmer + Endura FFG. Meanwhile, a ZT 0300 weighs 8.1 oz's - enough for a Vic Farmer, a Military, a Ti Prybar, a set of lockpicks, and a Photon II led, with grams to spare.

    So I have to ask, what is this hard use scenario that I'm missing? Because to me, optimizing a folding knife for "hard use" makes about as much sense as making a handgun heavier in order to optimize its pistol whipping ability.
    It's one of those "if you don't get it, you never will" things...
    I always heard that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but then you catch even more flies with poop



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  20. #20
    Spyderco Forum Registered User mark greenman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck_roxas45 View Post
    It's one of those "if you don't get it, you never will" things...
    Honestly, I'm always interested in learning new information, and my opinion changes with the facts. If someone could tell me a compelling reason for a hard use folder, or when they personally had to use one in a capacity that exceeded the strength of an Endura 4, I'd jump at the excuse for a new knife purchase.

    Baseline of Endura 4 strength:
    http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/endura_pe.html

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