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Thread: "Packing" at church?

  1. #21
    Spyderco Forum Registered User
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    With at least 10 police officers & 20 or more CCW permit holders including our pastor a bad guy would have a bad day
    doing something stupid at our church. We have a ton of children at our church and we take their safety very serious ! About
    a year ago we started a security team system that uses 4 men every sunday to help with parking and to help new
    visitors on where to go and where to take their children. We had so many men sign up for this that I only do it once every
    2 months. I think weapons legally and in the right hands at church these days is a must ! Just my opinion. We run around
    400 every Sunday and I haven't heard one single person voice a negative word about this.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by xceptnl View Post
    Congrats to you and the hopefully 1000s of other Illinois residents who can finally exercise their constitutional rights.
    Thanks! Yeah, it's about time. When I applied there was 12,000 permits under review and that was a month ago.

  3. #23
    Spyderco Forum Registered User wrdwrght's Avatar
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    If self-defense is a God-given right (the Second Amendment of the God-fearing US Constitution is predicated on this pre-existing right, right?), one does not need a cleric's or congregation's permission to carry in God's house. But, as some in a congregation are made uneasy by the sight of a gun, keeping it out of sight (truly concealed) does show respect for their concerns. What is the adage? "Always carry, never tell"?

    Cue the Dos XX's commercial...I don't always carry, but when I do, I never tell...

    So, to follow the implication off-topic, why don't I always carry? Because the burden of carrying far exceeds the weight of my loaded firearm. Most of the time, I want to be free of the moral and legal consequences that are sure to attend the use of my firearm. Yeah, yeah, I know, there's another adage. "Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it". While I let adages/algorithms/automata inform my judgment, I let my judgment tell me when I should carry. I guess I'm agnostic about most dogmas.
    Marc

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  4. #24
    Spyderco Forum Registered User The Deacon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blerv View Post
    Public shootings are still a very low fatality rate. At least the concern for them FAR outweighs your probable danger.
    That's a whole 'nother can of worms, Blake. SC has a seat belt law, but you'd never know it to read the accident stats. I'd be really curious to know what percentage of those killed in automobile accidents while unrestrained were packing at the time.
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  5. #25
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    Whether or not you carry is truly up to the individual. I've been in a church where the pastor & congregation were praying for more gun laws and government confiscation "to protect the children".

    If you really want to help, volunteer to be a "greeter" at your church.

    Greet people as they come in. Be friendly to visitors and make nice small talk with people. It's possible that a nutcase may be less likely to do something stupid if somebody has taken notice and is showing some iota of human kindness to them, rather than igoring them while they pull a weapon or something awful out of their backpack. Even if you never actually stop a psycho from abusing anybody, you'll be amazed how much fun you'll have at chruch.
    “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:22 KJV

  6. #26
    Spyderco Forum Registered User JNewell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Deacon View Post
    That's a whole 'nother can of worms, Blake. SC has a seat belt law, but you'd never know it to read the accident stats. I'd be really curious to know what percentage of those killed in automobile accidents while unrestrained were packing at the time.
    And probably smoking and using their cell phone while operating the vehicle?

  7. #27
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Blerv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNewell View Post
    And probably smoking and using their cell phone while operating the vehicle?
    Lol! I would rather face Al Qaeda than texting drivers leaving a high school.
    Blake

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrdwrght View Post
    If self-defense is a God-given right (the Second Amendment of the God-fearing US Constitution is predicated on this pre-existing right, right?), one does not need a cleric's or congregation's permission to carry in God's house. But, as some in a congregation are made uneasy by the sight of a gun, keeping it out of sight (truly concealed) does show respect for their concerns. What is the adage? "Always carry, never tell"?

    Cue the Dos XX's commercial...I don't always carry, but when I do, I never tell...

    So, to follow the implication off-topic, why don't I always carry? Because the burden of carrying far exceeds the weight of my loaded firearm. Most of the time, I want to be free of the moral and legal consequences that are sure to attend the use of my firearm. Yeah, yeah, I know, there's another adage. "Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it". While I let adages/algorithms/automata inform my judgment, I let my judgment tell me when I should carry. I guess I'm agnostic about most dogmas.
    We are a local, independent, Bible church, supported by the congregation only. The church is private property! Would you carry a gun into a person's house without asking permission? Now, if they know you, and are comfortable around you, and trust you, then that is a different story! Only members and well known visitors are allowed to carry inside the church. That said, if they are carrying concealed, we don't do pat downs or ask if they're carrying. Everyone knows everyone in our congregation, so a visitor gets special attention, knowingly and unknowingly. You can be friendly and hospitable, but also discerning as well!

  9. #29
    Spyderco Forum Registered User JNewell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blerv View Post
    Lol! I would rather face Al Qaeda than texting drivers leaving a high school.
    Cleary, and I am not joking at all. And at least what I see is not the high school kids doing this, it's the adults. No hands on the wheel, 65 mph - I am not exaggerating a bit. Terrifying.

  10. #30
    Spyderco Forum Registered User JNewell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eric m. View Post
    Would you carry a gun into a person's house without asking permission?
    Short answer: without hesitation. Wouldn't you? And if the answer is no, how about all the rest of the private property in the world around us?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNewell View Post
    Short answer: without hesitation. Wouldn't you? And if the answer is no, how about all the rest of the private property in the world around us?
    Absolutely not! You are entering a home, not just private property!

  12. #32
    Spyderco Forum Registered User JNewell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eric m. View Post
    Absolutely not! You are entering a home, not just private property!
    Then I trust you don't carry on any other private property, and especially not in anyone's residence, to include hotels, motels, apartment buildings and any place that's posted?

  13. #33
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    The circle in my life is very small. Family, friends, church family, that's it! Everyone that knows me, knows I carry and it is not an issue because of the trust factor already established! I do carry in public places and on private property, but I will not go over to a person's home that doesn't know me and carry a gun into that home without them knowing if they are comfortable with me entering their home with a gun. That puts both of us at ease. If anyone came to my home and I didn't know them and they brought a gun into my home without asking/notifying me first, they would leave faster than they entered! If I am in a hotel then I am residing there for the time being!
    Last edited by eric m.; 02-19-2014 at 07:37 AM.

  14. #34
    Spyderco Forum Registered User The Deacon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNewell View Post
    Then I trust you don't carry on any other private property, and especially not in anyone's residence, to include hotels, motels, apartment buildings and any place that's posted?
    Aside from the apartment building, it's an apples and oranges comparison. There are any number of points of etiquette that differ between commercial property and your home. The most obvious being that you can enter without asking permission. Most of us wouldn't bother asking the manager's permission before using the restroom at Walmarts either. As for concealed carry on commercial property, it's an easy decision here in SC. If a place of business does not want my business, all they need do is post a sign on the door like the one below. Otherwise, permission to enter while legally armed is implied. Again by law, a hotel or motel room you are renting here is considered to be your residence so you don't even need a CWP to have a loaded handgun in it. While I don't always agree with Eric, I'm 100% in agreement with him on this. I don't expect homeowners to post "No Concealable Weapons" signs, so I would not enter someone's home, at least not for the first few times, without letting them know I was carrying and I would expect the same courtesy from anyone visiting mine.

    Last edited by The Deacon; 02-19-2014 at 06:45 AM. Reason: forgot to add the picture
    Paul
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  15. #35
    Spyderco Forum Registered User wrdwrght's Avatar
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    If you commit to leave your home with a concealed handgun, then you're obliged, I do believe, to carry it until you have returned home, regardless of where you're going. As I said above, carrying is a burden far greater than the mere physical weight of the thing.

    Storing your CCW in a vehicle before entering someone's home (or some legally-proscribed or otherwise posted place) is, I also believe, irresponsible. Vehicles can be easily stolen and their contents, whether in an unlocked glovebox or a bolted-down handgun safe, easily removed. You have a responsibility to keep your gun out of others' hands. The safest place for a gun outside a real safe in your home is on your person, hidden from view, thus not a temptation to a bad guy...

    If you must go to a legally-proscribed place and don't want to risk a metal-detector, you should not leave home with your CCW. And if you feel guilty about carrying into someone's home (or church), you should not leave home with your CCW.

    Why you would feel guilty is another question. If you have no ill-intent, a CCW, like your underwear, is no one's business but your own (and that of the person who would threaten your life or the lives of your loved ones).

    Of course, the possiblity of a negligent discharge in someone's home (or church) does increase your burden of carrying.
    Marc

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  16. #36
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Blerv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrdwrght View Post
    If you commit to leave your home with a concealed handgun, then you're obliged, I do believe, to carry it until you have returned home, regardless of where you're going. As I said above, carrying is a burden far greater than the mere physical weight of the thing.
    Exactly. There are places where I think about what knife I will carry dependent on if it's seen. Sometimes I don't carry one at all, which is very annoying but occasionally necessary.

    If you feel uncomfortable going to places without a gun maybe the best thing is to avoid them completely or carry some means of defense that is approved. At the least, remain extremely alert which will get you out of a large number of the already extremely rare encounters.
    Blake

  17. #37
    Spyderco Forum Registered User xceptnl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrdwrght View Post
    If you commit to leave your home with a concealed handgun, then you're obliged, I do believe, to carry it until you have returned home, regardless of where you're going. As I said above, carrying is a burden far greater than the mere physical weight of the thing.

    Storing your CCW in a vehicle before entering someone's home (or some legally-proscribed or otherwise posted place) is, I also believe, irresponsible. Vehicles can be easily stolen and their contents, whether in an unlocked glovebox or a bolted-down handgun safe, easily removed. You have a responsibility to keep your gun out of others' hands. The safest place for a gun outside a real safe in your home is on your person, hidden from view, thus not a temptation to a bad guy...

    If you must go to a legally-proscribed place and don't want to risk a metal-detector, you should not leave home with your CCW. And if you feel guilty about carrying into someone's home (or church), you should not leave home with your CCW.

    Why you would feel guilty is another question. If you have no ill-intent, a CCW, like your underwear, is no one's business but your own (and that of the person who would threaten your life or the lives of your loved ones).

    Of course, the possiblity of a negligent discharge in someone's home (or church) does increase your burden of carrying.
    This describes my personal views on the subject to a letter. If no ill intent is present and you are concealing properly, then it is only your business. If that makes you uncomfortable, leave it at home. I hate leaving it in the car and have been forced to a time or two because I don't plan to be unarmed for an entire day just because I am going into a courthouse for 20 minutes.

    A youtuber by the name TheYankeeMarshal has a video of him putting a secure lockbox in his car. I have been meaning to do this for quite a while, but have not had the time.
    Last edited by xceptnl; 02-19-2014 at 11:01 AM. Reason: lockbox
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  18. #38
    Spyderco Forum Registered User The Deacon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrdwrght View Post
    If you commit to leave your home with a concealed handgun, then you're obliged, I do believe, to carry it until you have returned home, regardless of where you're going. As I said above, carrying is a burden far greater than the mere physical weight of the thing.

    Storing your CCW in a vehicle before entering someone's home (or some legally-proscribed or otherwise posted place) is, I also believe, irresponsible. Vehicles can be easily stolen and their contents, whether in an unlocked glovebox or a bolted-down handgun safe, easily removed. You have a responsibility to keep your gun out of others' hands. The safest place for a gun outside a real safe in your home is on your person, hidden from view, thus not a temptation to a bad guy..
    You are entitled to your beliefs, but I would politely disagree. I would bet the vast majority of gun owners in general, and CWP holders in particular, own more than one firearm. Assuming that's the case, then some of those firearms have to be left unattended at times. To me, leaving a handgun in a locked compartment (or, for that matter, simply out of view in a closed compartment) inside a locked vehicle is no different from leaving one inside your locked home and I do not see doing either as inherently irresponsible.
    Paul
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  19. #39
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Officer Gigglez's Avatar
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    I don't go to church, but you can bet I'd carry in one. Just because you're in the "house of god," does not mean that the lowlifes won't ruin your day.
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  20. #40
    Spyderco Forum Registered User MattBPKT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer Gigglez View Post
    I don't go to church, but you can bet I'd carry in one. Just because you're in the "house of god," does not mean that the lowlifes won't ruin your day.
    Amen to that!
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