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Thread: SM-35M50 Micromelt Steel looks amazing!

  1. #101
    Spyderco Forum Registered User hunterseeker5's Avatar
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    I mentioned this in another thread, but I think it would help/interest far more of us if it were asked and answered here:

    You regularly reference AEB-L as an example of a preferred high performance low carbide steel. What comes with a spyder-hole, and preferably is broken in the middle, that us mere mortals could purchase to experiment with and experience these things ourselves?

  2. #102
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    Cliff, I'm curious as to how you measure sharpness such as when you say less than 5% or about 1% optimal. I have Shapton stones from 220 grit all the way to 30,000 (0.5micron) and have not yet had difficulty sharpening any steel (at least those offered by Spyderco including k390 and s110v) to push cutting newsprint and beyond.

    Also, when you say lower sharpness goals, about what micron edge are you referring to (or are you referring to something totally different)?

    Lastly, if say you were to use s90v and m390, both at 15 degrees per side, what would you say is a good finish to stop at?

    Thanks again.

  3. #103
    Spyderco Forum Registered User dbcad's Avatar
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    Cardboard is a liilte bit general Beer box, heavy corrugated, medium corrugated? Not being super critical, but cardboard has many different levels and I would geuss effects and materials that it's made of
    Charlie

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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunterseeker5 View Post
    You regularly reference AEB-L as an example of a preferred high performance low carbide steel.
    I mention it because it is well known and you can look it up. The reason that AEB-L has optimal edge stability is because :

    -0.6% carbon gives you maximum martensite hardness and is the transition point from lathe (tough) to plate (brittle) martensite

    -13% chromium gives enough free chromium for passivation (12%), and just enough left over to produce a small volume of very small, non-segregated carbides.

    However it isn't like if you move from that top point that you immediately fall to the bottom point. The SuperBlue Delica and the M4 Air, all have high edge stability. What you are looking for is a combination of :

    -high martensite hardness
    -very fine aus-grain
    -low percentage of non-martensite phases
    -small carbides with low aggregates

    HSS's are extremely high in the first three, and high in the last one aside except when they start to get very high in Vanadium and similar (T15 for example).

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkingEdge View Post
    Cliff, I'm curious as to how you measure sharpness such as when you say less than 5% or about 1% optimal.
    http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/art...ss_review.html


    I have Shapton stones from 220 grit all the way to 30,000 (0.5micron) and have not yet had difficulty sharpening any steel (at least those offered by Spyderco including k390 and s110v) to push cutting newsprint and beyond.
    You don't see any difference in time, focus or attention required to sharpen S110V to push cut newsprint than O1 (or similar)? How long does it take in general?


    Also, when you say lower sharpness goals, about what micron edge are you referring to (or are you referring to something totally different)?
    Slicing photocopy paper for example, if that is where sharpness ends you would likely not notice much advantage to the high edge stability steels. If you are push cutting newsprint then I would be surprised if you found S90V and White Steel to be similar in many respects.

    In general preserving sharpness at a very high level, such as shaving, has little benefit to high carbide steels and it mainly degrades it. Chris has shown for example how a simple Delica in VG-10 is not outperformed by a XM-18 in Duratech 20CV, a high end PM steel. The problem is the very high end steel has so much carbide that it can't hold a razor edge longer than a very simple ingot stainless.


    Lastly, if say you were to use s90v and m390, both at 15 degrees per side, what would you say is a good finish to stop at?
    It is going to depend on what you are cutting and how, but generally for high carbide steels, unless you are above 15 dps, 600 DMT shows what they can do well. A very high polish isn't enhanced at all by high carbides, it has to be reduced as how can a 10 micron carbide help stabilize a 0.1 micron edge. I often use the MXF DMT regardless as while the edge retention will be lower in slicing, if I am doing push cutting the cutting ability itself will be too low with a more coarse finish.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbcad View Post
    Not being super critical, but cardboard has many different levels ...
    Yes, that is why I random sample.

    Now if you have a very large supply of a consistent type there is no reason not to use that, but you have to have such a consistent supply long term and thus be able to compare work you do now to work you do a year ago. If your supply is random (as is mine as it is all recycled) you just random sample to ensure no bias.

    I mainly cut 1/8" corrugated as it is what most boxes are made from, but at times it includes much thinner and much thicker. I also take notes on the characteristics of a particular sample. For example the recent one I cut with Kyley's Victorious was both dirty and full of glue so the edge retention was degraded below the current median and the edge took more damage than when Mike's large Flipper cut a much cleaner and much softer sample.

    In general the largest differences are :

    -softer and more abrasive

    -harder and less abrasive

    and then there are the glues and the dirt and the packing tape and such. The high carbides steels excel at the soft/abrasive carbide and will take the most damage at the harder carbide (as there is more force used to cut it).

  5. #105
    Spyderco Forum Registered User chuck_roxas45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrutallyEffective View Post
    ....
    Seems like you only registered to muzzle me....since you're not posting in other threads.

    Bottom line is that HCV steel sprints are selling like hotcakes. People are still asking for HCV steel knives because they have good experience with such steels.
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  6. #106
    Spyderco Forum Registered User dbcad's Avatar
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    This thread is a truly delightful derailment from the original post

    Understanding some of Cliff's studies can be challenging as they are based on the scientific method and are in some cases are a bit mathematical I'm dusting off some of my 20+ year old textbooks I still can't completely understand everything As days go by I find I am understanding more and more

    It seems a lot edge of holding at low angles is determined by that Martensitic stuff that holds the carbides together, it seems the carbides provide the "points" and the ability to retain the carbides is a critical factor??

    Just learning as we all are
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  7. #107
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    Cliff - read the article you wrote on the link you supplied regarding sharpness. So when you mention something as less than 5% or 1% optimal sharpness, this is meaning it would take 20 or 100 times the force required to cut through a particular string as compared to an ideally sharpened knife? Just trying to figure out what the numbers mean.

    Regarding my sharpening. I've never timed myself, but as I do it for fun, I usually spend a couple hours going through a ridiculous progression of stones. I am sure that some steels are a lot easier to sharpen than others, from my vague recollections of the knives I've sharpened.

    Getting back to S90v for a moment - Phil Wilson meantioned that the carbide size is 2-4 microns in size. How fine of an edge can I put on it to be considered relatively stable at 15 dps?
    I guess I am looking for a reference or "formula" that compares relative edge stability in relation to carbide size, inclusive angle, and finishing grit.
    I am aware it would ignore a lot of other factors including heat treat and what the blade is planned for, but I have to learn in little simplified chunks to better understand things.
    Last edited by WorkingEdge; 12-21-2013 at 09:45 AM. Reason: spelling

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkingEdge View Post
    \So when you mention something as less than 5% or 1% optimal sharpness, this is meaning it would take 20 or 100 times the force required to cut through a particular string as compared to an ideally sharpened knife?
    I keep the force constant so the length is the measurement, but yes that is what it means. 10% of initial sharpness means 10X as long to make a cut.


    Getting back to S90v for a moment - Phil Wilson meantioned that the carbide size is 2-4 microns in size. How fine of an edge can I put on it to be considered relatively stable at 15 dps?
    The individual carbides are of that size, but the problem is that they segregated (group together) in much larger clumps.



    This is S60V (440V) and you can see there are many large chains of carbides all formed together making big macro-carbides which are 10-20 microns in size.

    It is going to depend on what you are cutting and what you consider sharp. If you want a true razor type sharpness you are going to be in the range of 20-25 dps. At 15 dps I would be surprised if going beyond 1200 DMT is going to be productive.

    But again if you are doing push cutting you are going to want a high polish regardless of the steel as a more coarse edge is going to have low performance right from the start. This is why wood working blades have to have very high edge stability as they are push cutting (chisels, plane blades, etc.)


    I guess I am looking for a reference or "formula" that compares relative edge stability in relation to carbide size, inclusive angle, and finishing grit.
    Yes, that would be interesting. If you look at this table you can see a peak form at about Elmax/M4/ZDP-189 :

    http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/cardboard.html

    The next part to that is to go both higher and lower in angle and see where the peak moves. Then taking that data you can devise a predictor for angle optimization as a function of carbide volume. This is for slicing on abrasive media, the whole thing would have to be repeated for push cutting.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbcad View Post
    It seems a lot edge of holding at low angles is determined by that Martensitic stuff that holds the carbides together, it seems the carbides provide the "points" and the ability to retain the carbides is a critical factor??
    The carbides have long been argued to be some kind of cutting agent but this isn't true. Carbides in high carbide steels are actually so large they are visible (or would be if you could see the difference between carbide and the martensite - you can't without etching).

    If you look at an edge and it is so dull you can see it then the cutting ability by that point is very low. Now if you want to use knives like that, where you can literally see the light reflecting from edge, then yes, carbides tend to enhance cutting because they form jagged peaks and when they rip out they leave jagged holes. But this stage of the blade is so dull that you could sharpen it better by accident if you just moved it in random directions on or about a stone.

    Keep in mind that a sharpened edge is on the order of 0.1 microns, the only carbides that are that size are cementite which is the type of carbide which tends to form mainly in plan carbon steels like 1095.

    In regards to steels and performance, one of the critical questions to ask in all cases if you think you know something is :

    -if this is true then what else would have to be true

    If what you come up with isn't true then the first thing can't be either. This is why it has to be false when people say things like "I would never use something like 8Cr13MoV, it goes dull as soon as I use it on cardboard." If this was true then the edge retention of all of the ABS guys knives would be even worse but does anyone, anyone at all think that is true - of course not.



    Is there anyone who would if handed that knife from Fikes give it back to him because he only uses "low end" steels and it simply would not have the performance you need for sharpening, sharpness, edge retention, durability and general versatility?

  9. #109
    Spyderco Forum Registered User dbcad's Avatar
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    Excellent thread, exremely illuminating
    Charlie

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  10. #110
    Spyderco Forum Registered User chuck_roxas45's Avatar
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    Well, my Tenacious just lost it's bite after a few cuts on cardboard but my GB didn't. My experience is what illuminates me.
    I always heard that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but then you catch even more flies with poop



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  11. #111
    Spyderco Forum Registered User dbcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck_roxas45 View Post
    Well, my Tenacious just lost it's bite after a few cuts on cardboard but my GB didn't. My experience is what illuminates me.
    What kind of edge was on the tenacious?? High edge angle, low edge angle, coarse or polished finish? etc.

    Merry Christmas I appreciate you as always
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  12. #112
    Spyderco Forum Registered User chuck_roxas45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbcad View Post
    What kind of edge was on the tenacious?? High edge angle, low edge angle, coarse or polished finish? etc.

    Merry Christmas I appreciate you as always
    Awww common charlie, you know I can sharpen and I don't like very low angles. Tried all kinds of finish.

    Believe it or not, this knuckle dragger can understand a bit of math and science. I still don't like low edge angles because I hate repairing edge damage. Also I don't want a fragile(for my uses) edge when my 30 inclusive edges on my different steels work very well for me.
    I always heard that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but then you catch even more flies with poop



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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck_roxas45 View Post
    Well, my Tenacious just lost it's bite after a few cuts on cardboard but my GB didn't. My experience is what illuminates me.
    The GB is pretty incredible. I failed to keep it from rusting so I forced a patina with naval jelly. I didnt like that so I painstakingly sanded it off. Didn't like the scratch marks so I tumbled it in rocks. Takes a licking, keeps on whittling.

    Chuck - how do you like hollow grind versus FFG?

  14. #114
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    This is a non-name kitchen knife :



    Knives like this can easily make 1000+ cuts into 1/8" ridged cardboard (12" cuts) and still be able to slice newsprint.

    It takes nothing more than a proper sharpening to achieve such performance, if you fail to be able to do that with a knife with a harder steel which has a higher wear resistance and higher edge stability it shows nothing more than the knife was sharpened poorly.

    Again, the knife that Fikes used has a lower carbide content than 8Cr13MoV, does anyone, anyone at all thing you can't make a few cuts into cardboard with that knife?

    This is why you have to do proper experiments because if you don't you will be ruled by bias and not gain knowledge only misinformation.

  15. #115
    Spyderco Forum Registered User chuck_roxas45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkingEdge View Post
    The GB is pretty incredible. I failed to keep it from rusting so I forced a patina with naval jelly. I didnt like that so I painstakingly sanded it off. Didn't like the scratch marks so I tumbled it in rocks. Takes a licking, keeps on whittling.

    Chuck - how do you like hollow grind versus FFG?
    As long as it's thin behind the edge, it will work for me. The geometry of the GB does make it bind a bit when cutting thick media. BTW, my GB is beveled at around 22-24 inclusive so it's pretty good performer.
    I always heard that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but then you catch even more flies with poop



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  16. #116
    Spyderco Forum Registered User chuck_roxas45's Avatar
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    So how thin is the blade stock on that knife Cliff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Stamp View Post
    This is a non-name kitchen knife :



    Knives like this can easily make 1000+ cuts into 1/8" ridged cardboard (12" cuts) and still be able to slice newsprint.

    It takes nothing more than a proper sharpening to achieve such performance, if you fail to be able to do that with a knife with a harder steel which has a higher wear resistance and higher edge stability it shows nothing more than the knife was sharpened poorly.

    Again, the knife that Fikes used has a lower carbide content than 8Cr13MoV, does anyone, anyone at all thing you can't make a few cuts into cardboard with that knife?

    This is why you have to do proper experiments because if you don't you will be ruled by bias and not gain knowledge only misinformation.
    I always heard that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but then you catch even more flies with poop



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  17. #117
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    0.09"/roughly 3/32" thick at the spine.

  18. #118
    Spyderco Forum Registered User dbcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck_roxas45 View Post
    So how thin is the blade stock on that knife Cliff?
    I have the same question Chuck I'll geuss because it looks like a kitchen knife it's in the neighborhood of 2 mm. We'll see how wrong I am

    This thread has gone completely awry from the Original Post, but in a very positive and informative way
    Charlie

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  19. #119
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Evil D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbcad View Post
    Cardboard is a liilte bit general Beer box, heavy corrugated, medium corrugated? Not being super critical, but cardboard has many different levels and I would geuss effects and materials that it's made of
    Well Charlie if you wanna get technical, boxes aren't even made out of cardboard unless it's a cereal box. The rest are made out of corrugated fiber board

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  20. #120
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    Cliff - if peak form appears to be at Elmax, M4, and ZDP, are those considered high carbide steels or are they in that category based on hardness? Were these results as you expected? Regarding a microbevel, what are the approximate dimensions of such and how would it play a role in edge stability, assuming it is in the order of microns?

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