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Thread: S110v target Hardness?

  1. #41
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Ankerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCM View Post
    Sounds good!
    I think I know how its going to turn out, but will hold off for now.

    Thanks again for taking the time in doing this!

    Throw in some K390 just for fun!

    Both Knives were .010" behind the edge, both Customs.

    K294 - 64 HRC
    S110V - 63.5 HRC

    S110V - 360 Cuts - 11 LBS
    K294 - 360 Cuts - 12 LBS

    S110V - 740 Cuts - 13 LBS
    K294 - 740 Cuts - 12 LBS

    S110V - 1500 Cuts - 19 LBS
    K294 - 1500 Cuts - 17 LBS

    Goes to show how good S110V really is because A11 (K294/10V) has extreme edge retention.
    Last edited by Ankerson; 04-12-2013 at 04:25 AM.

  2. #42
    Spyderco Forum Registered User kbuzbee's Avatar
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    Nice! Very impressive, Jim.

    Just curious, how how does 1500 cuts take you?

    Ken
    玉鋼

  3. #43
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Ankerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kbuzbee View Post
    Nice! Very impressive, Jim.

    Just curious, how how does 1500 cuts take you?

    Ken

    It's a two day thing.

  4. #44
    Spyderco Forum Registered User kbuzbee's Avatar
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    Wow, nice dedication, brother. I have trouble staying focused long enough to get a knife sharp!

    Ken
    玉鋼

  5. #45
    Spyderco Forum Registered User MCM's Avatar
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    That was fast!

    Very impressive!

    MCM


    Quote Originally Posted by Ankerson View Post
    Both Knives were .010" behind the edge, both Customs.

    K294 - 64 HRC
    S110V - 63.5 HRC

    S110V - 360 Cuts - 11 LBS
    K294 - 360 Cuts - 12 LBS

    S110V - 740 Cuts - 13 LBS
    K294 - 740 Cuts - 12 LBS

    S110V - 1500 Cuts - 19 LBS
    K294 - 1500 Cuts - 17 LBS

    Goes to show how good S110V really is because A11 (K294/10V) has extreme edge retention.

    More S90v & CF please.......

  6. #46
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Ankerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCM View Post
    That was fast!

    Very impressive!

    MCM

    Already had the data, all I had to do was post it.

  7. #47
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    Just to get back to the original question and to put a little perspective on this discussion. The original poster asked what hardness to expect from a Spyderco CPMS110V production knife. This is all speculation but I am going to speculate based on my experience and what I know about this grade. It is going to be very close to what they do on CPM S90V. Probably RC 60 or maybe 61 at the highest. Over the years I have been working with this steel I have managed to get some up to 64 or so like the knife that Jim and Mastiff have. This knife was ground very thin and was a kind of test knife for me. I broke a dime size piece out of it with very aggressive whittling on bamboo. I got some twist into it and found the limits of the blade. I reground that knife, still pretty thin and sent it to Jim to test. You have seen his test results. In order to get to 64 it takes a very high initial soak temperature, a very quick quench down to room temp, a subzero with LN2 and a temper at the high end, in the range of 900 to 1000 F. Since the subzero has taken care of the retained austenite there is really no hardness bump but the hardness is not reduced much, maybe only a point at most. According to Crucible some ductility and some corrosion resistance is lost due to the high temperature. This is especially true at the 64rc or so range. I have moved away from the high end temper and now use the low end. I like the properties better but I end up with 62/62.5/63 as the highest hardness here since I want a good stress relief and modification of the martensite. This steel is very quench rate sensitive so in a production process and depending on the equipment and controls it is likely that the initial as quenched hardness is going to be about 62. Any tempering at all and you are down to 60/61 at best. Keep in mind that I do one knife blade at a time and can change some things if I do not get what I am shooting for. I can see an edge holding difference between RC 60 and 63 but it is on the order of 20- 25% and I think that is a good trade off for added ductility and corrosion resistance, especially in a production knife. I think if it ends up at 60 or so then we should thank Spyderco for taking this one on and making a great steel grade available on a production basis. This stuff is also still very expensive and a challenge to grind and finish. Phil

  8. #48
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    Thank you much, for your insight, Sir!

  9. #49
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Popsickle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Wilson View Post
    Just to get back to the original question and to put a little perspective on this discussion. The original poster asked what hardness to expect from a Spyderco CPMS110V production knife. This is all speculation but I am going to speculate based on my experience and what I know about this grade. It is going to be very close to what they do on CPM S90V. Probably RC 60 or maybe 61 at the highest. Over the years I have been working with this steel I have managed to get some up to 64 or so like the knife that Jim and Mastiff have. This knife was ground very thin and was a kind of test knife for me. I broke a dime size piece out of it with very aggressive whittling on bamboo. I got some twist into it and found the limits of the blade. I reground that knife, still pretty thin and sent it to Jim to test. You have seen his test results. In order to get to 64 it takes a very high initial soak temperature, a very quick quench down to room temp, a subzero with LN2 and a temper at the high end, in the range of 900 to 1000 F. Since the subzero has taken care of the retained austenite there is really no hardness bump but the hardness is not reduced much, maybe only a point at most. According to Crucible some ductility and some corrosion resistance is lost due to the high temperature. This is especially true at the 64rc or so range. I have moved away from the high end temper and now use the low end. I like the properties better but I end up with 62/62.5/63 as the highest hardness here since I want a good stress relief and modification of the martensite. This steel is very quench rate sensitive so in a production process and depending on the equipment and controls it is likely that the initial as quenched hardness is going to be about 62. Any tempering at all and you are down to 60/61 at best. Keep in mind that I do one knife blade at a time and can change some things if I do not get what I am shooting for. I can see an edge holding difference between RC 60 and 63 but it is on the order of 20- 25% and I think that is a good trade off for added ductility and corrosion resistance, especially in a production knife. I think if it ends up at 60 or so then we should thank Spyderco for taking this one on and making a great steel grade available on a production basis. This stuff is also still very expensive and a challenge to grind and finish. Phil

    Thanks for your insight Phil. I always enjoy reading your informative posts like this one. Now if we can just get sal to chime in

  10. #50
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    Phil and Jim, thanks for the great reply's and insight. All of this begs a obvious question. From a real world usage point of view, is there a practical benifit of choosing S110V over S90V in a production knife at the same HRC? I understand that is just one point of consideration.
    Thanks...

  11. #51
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Ankerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Allen View Post
    Phil and Jim, thanks for the great reply's and insight. All of this begs a obvious question. From a real world usage point of view, is there a practical benifit of choosing S110V over S90V in a production knife at the same HRC? I understand that is just one point of consideration.
    Thanks...

    Yes, S110V has a higher alloy content than S90V, that's carbide forming alloys so there would be a difference.

  12. #52
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Ankerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Wilson View Post
    Just to get back to the original question and to put a little perspective on this discussion. The original poster asked what hardness to expect from a Spyderco CPMS110V production knife. This is all speculation but I am going to speculate based on my experience and what I know about this grade. It is going to be very close to what they do on CPM S90V. Probably RC 60 or maybe 61 at the highest. Over the years I have been working with this steel I have managed to get some up to 64 or so like the knife that Jim and Mastiff have. This knife was ground very thin and was a kind of test knife for me. I broke a dime size piece out of it with very aggressive whittling on bamboo. I got some twist into it and found the limits of the blade. I reground that knife, still pretty thin and sent it to Jim to test. You have seen his test results. In order to get to 64 it takes a very high initial soak temperature, a very quick quench down to room temp, a subzero with LN2 and a temper at the high end, in the range of 900 to 1000 F. Since the subzero has taken care of the retained austenite there is really no hardness bump but the hardness is not reduced much, maybe only a point at most. According to Crucible some ductility and some corrosion resistance is lost due to the high temperature. This is especially true at the 64rc or so range. I have moved away from the high end temper and now use the low end. I like the properties better but I end up with 62/62.5/63 as the highest hardness here since I want a good stress relief and modification of the martensite. This steel is very quench rate sensitive so in a production process and depending on the equipment and controls it is likely that the initial as quenched hardness is going to be about 62. Any tempering at all and you are down to 60/61 at best. Keep in mind that I do one knife blade at a time and can change some things if I do not get what I am shooting for. I can see an edge holding difference between RC 60 and 63 but it is on the order of 20- 25% and I think that is a good trade off for added ductility and corrosion resistance, especially in a production knife. I think if it ends up at 60 or so then we should thank Spyderco for taking this one on and making a great steel grade available on a production basis. This stuff is also still very expensive and a challenge to grind and finish. Phil

    Thanks for ringing in Phil, your input and valuable information is always extremely helpful.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankerson View Post
    Yes, S110V has a higher alloy content than S90V, that's carbide forming alloys so there would be a difference.
    Thanks,
    This has been a interesting, valuable thread. Especially if one is still a grasshopper. (That would be me)
    Cheers...
    Last edited by Ray Allen; 04-12-2013 at 08:52 PM.

  14. #54
    Spyderco Forum Registered User The Mastiff's Avatar
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    I think if it ends up at 60 or so then we should thank Spyderco for taking this one on and making a great steel grade available on a production basis. This stuff is also still very expensive and a challenge to grind and finish. Phil
    That's pretty much what I figured for a production knife. I went through this with another company when they made a run of this steel and they ended up around rc 59. If Spyderco can do better than that , say 60-60.5 than we are doing well with S110V. It's still a very impressive steel and I'd still feel bad for the guys in the factory making them. Unless one expects state of the art Phil Wilson hand made one at a time custom performance it will be very satisfactory and a desirable product.

    Joe
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  15. #55
    Spyderco Forum Registered User chuck_roxas45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Wilson View Post
    Just to get back to the original question and to put a little perspective on this discussion. The original poster asked what hardness to expect from a Spyderco CPMS110V production knife. This is all speculation but I am going to speculate based on my experience and what I know about this grade. It is going to be very close to what they do on CPM S90V. Probably RC 60 or maybe 61 at the highest. Over the years I have been working with this steel I have managed to get some up to 64 or so like the knife that Jim and Mastiff have. This knife was ground very thin and was a kind of test knife for me. I broke a dime size piece out of it with very aggressive whittling on bamboo. I got some twist into it and found the limits of the blade. I reground that knife, still pretty thin and sent it to Jim to test. You have seen his test results. In order to get to 64 it takes a very high initial soak temperature, a very quick quench down to room temp, a subzero with LN2 and a temper at the high end, in the range of 900 to 1000 F. Since the subzero has taken care of the retained austenite there is really no hardness bump but the hardness is not reduced much, maybe only a point at most. According to Crucible some ductility and some corrosion resistance is lost due to the high temperature. This is especially true at the 64rc or so range. I have moved away from the high end temper and now use the low end. I like the properties better but I end up with 62/62.5/63 as the highest hardness here since I want a good stress relief and modification of the martensite. This steel is very quench rate sensitive so in a production process and depending on the equipment and controls it is likely that the initial as quenched hardness is going to be about 62. Any tempering at all and you are down to 60/61 at best. Keep in mind that I do one knife blade at a time and can change some things if I do not get what I am shooting for. I can see an edge holding difference between RC 60 and 63 but it is on the order of 20- 25% and I think that is a good trade off for added ductility and corrosion resistance, especially in a production knife. I think if it ends up at 60 or so then we should thank Spyderco for taking this one on and making a great steel grade available on a production basis. This stuff is also still very expensive and a challenge to grind and finish. Phil
    Thank you for the post Mr. Wilson. This is exactly the kind of post that a layman like me can relate to.
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  16. #56
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Blerv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck_roxas45 View Post
    Thank you for the post Mr. Wilson. This is exactly the kind of post that a layman like me can relate to.
    No joke . And a reason why I love this forum. Some quality people spend time here.
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  17. #57
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    I hope that they really push to get a high hardness. I can't wait to polish that edge and see what it will do.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blerv View Post
    No joke . And a reason why I love this forum. Some quality people spend time here.
    +1
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Wilson View Post
    I have moved away from the high end temper and now use the low end. I like the properties better but I end up with 62/62.5/63 as the highest hardness here since I want a good stress relief and modification of the martensite.
    Phil,

    On a curious/interesting note, I believe R. J. Martin runs the low cycle as well. He typically does not disclose what he does however, but I would guess it based on what I have read. He typically runs it at 61/62 but generally makes tactical folders and such so he likely reduces the soak temperature to gain toughness.

    However I don't think either would be the ideal way for Spyderco to harden it because of durability concerns and it is unlikely they can run multiple deep quenches or even accelerated quenches. And if the edges are left fairly thick/heavy to compensate for the larger user base then you are going to end up with a knife which doesn't cut well and is difficult to sharpen.

    If however they tempered past the embrittlement at 950, and went up to 1050 they could eliminate the deep quench which is likely very expensive for them as the martensite would transform in temper, and so they could simply run two tempers (ideally three). They should then be able to achieve 60/61 without a quench accelerant (salt/oil/plates).

    More importantly, it would be a true 60/61 with a very small amount of non-martensite phases and thus not susceptible to premature micro-failure. And it would allow a more optimal cutting geometry without over concern about brittle failure.

    If they can not soak that hot, then they have three other choices, none of which are ideal so what they do is very dependent on what is available regarding the thermal processing.

  20. #60
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    As an aside, if you are just interested in high wear stainless steels, there are lots of grades out there that would dominate 110V, as they are designed as carbide replacements. These are becoming more common as intermediates between carbide and HSS as the balance is being found of just how much fracture toughness is needed as that is the limiting reason why you don't just use solid carbide as an example :

    http://www.ferro-titanit.com/en/properties/grades/

    I am getting some samples made of the WFN grade.

    -~70 HRC
    -extreme high wear
    -high corrosion resistance
    -very fine aus-grain (TiC is an extremely stable aus-boundry pinner)
    -low carbide segregation

    There is also nothing overly complicated about how it has to be hardened :

    -1975 soak
    -positive pressure quench
    -multiple high tempers

    Of course it would be improved as would anything by salt (but to a lesser degree due to the TiN pinning) and accelerated quench, and likely gain 1-2 HRC points, and a more optimal micro-structure (less non-martensite phases, less precipitation).

    These grades of steels are to 110V as 110V is to 420J2.

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