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Thread: S110v target Hardness?

  1. #1
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Popsickle's Avatar
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    S110v target Hardness?

    Hey sal,

    I know S110V can be pushed to 65hrc an that its also not feasible for that high a hardness in a production blade. What is your target for S110V?

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User chuck_roxas45's Avatar
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    I'm curious about that too.
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    i wonder if maybe theyll try to run it a bit harder possibly as a semi-test. pretty curious too! thanks in advance sal!
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    Spyderco Forum Registered User Donut's Avatar
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    All the performance we can squeeze out of it sounds good to me.
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    Hello,
    I both called their HQ and emailed them this past week with the same question.
    No response to date.
    Cheers...

  6. #6
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Blerv's Avatar
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    http://www.alphaknifesupply.com/Pict...PMS110V-DS.pdf

    Seems 58-61. Really if 61 is the start of diminishing returns excessive hardness might not be worth it. Not sure though.
    Blake

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User razorsharp's Avatar
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    63-64'd be nice
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    Spyderco Forum Registered User kbuzbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blerv View Post
    Seems 58-61. Really if 61 is the start of diminishing returns excessive hardness might not be worth it. Not sure though.
    I'd guess you are right about 58-61 Blake but I'm with Travis and would love to see it hit 63-64.

    And yes, I understand there are issues taking it that hard, both for production and for the ELU. But (IMO) this is not your average knife (or steel) and I think it should really be allowed to shine.

    IIRC Kershaw did a run of Shallots in S110V a couple years ago. I think those were around 61 and the comments were 'it's just like S90V' A fine steel, please don't misunderstand. But if S110V is to really differentiate itself, I think it needs to be a bit harder.

    Ken
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    Hi,
    A well known knife person, who I will not name, has called S110V at a HRC of 58~59, "butter soft". He also alluded to the Shallot being run in that range. I agree with the notion that 63~64 would be great to see on a production knife. He has also stated that this run will be " properly hard" but is waiting for Sal to comment further. Should be interesting to hear more.
    Cheers...
    Last edited by Ray Allen; 04-11-2013 at 08:01 AM.

  10. #10
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    If 59 HRC is "butter soft" then 63 HRC would be at most coconut oil as it is less than 10% harder.

    Picking HT based on hardness would be like picking basketball players by height, yes it is a relevant statistic but it should never be used blindly and if that is all you use then you are likely to end up with a fairly odd team, especially if people know that is all you are looking for.

    Rather than asking for a particular hardness, demand a particular performance which comes from the micro-structure.

    As just one aspect, you can temper S110V and hit the maximum hardness peak for secondary hardening and get a very high hardness but also :

    -you sacrifice corrosion resistance
    -impact toughness is lost
    -martensite formation will not be optimal

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    I dont think the Kershaw was that high i have one and it didn't perform as nice as my spydercos S90V knives. It was also really easy to reprofile too easy for what it was. Some people sent them to phil Wilson to have them reheat treated. I wouldn't mind doing the same but mine is of the. Combo edge variety. Luckily Sal is pretty good with heat treats i trust their judgement but i'm pretty curious as well

  12. #12
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Ankerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blerv View Post
    http://www.alphaknifesupply.com/Pict...PMS110V-DS.pdf

    Seems 58-61. Really if 61 is the start of diminishing returns excessive hardness might not be worth it. Not sure though.
    Around 63 HRC (62-63) would be optimal for a production knife due to compressive yield strength, that's something that is very important.

    We will have to wait and see what Sal does with it though, I am sure we will be pleased with the results.

  13. #13
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Ankerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Stamp View Post
    If 59 HRC is "butter soft" then 63 HRC would be at most coconut oil as it is less than 10% harder.

    Picking HT based on hardness would be like picking basketball players by height, yes it is a relevant statistic but it should never be used blindly and if that is all you use then you are likely to end up with a fairly odd team, especially if people know that is all you are looking for.

    Rather than asking for a particular hardness, demand a particular performance which comes from the micro-structure.

    As just one aspect, you can temper S110V and hit the maximum hardness peak for secondary hardening and get a very high hardness but also :

    -you sacrifice corrosion resistance
    -impact toughness is lost
    -martensite formation will not be optimal
    You are so dead wrong I don't even know where to begin......

    And that's after testing a number of different knives in S110V at different hardness ranges and heat treating processes.

    VERY slight loss in corrosion resistance with HUGE increases in wear resistance up to 60% to 70% (With CYRO Treatment) over that 58-60 range and the compression strength goes through the roof in that 63 range.

    The range in hardness is from 58-66 HRC.......
    Last edited by Ankerson; 04-11-2013 at 09:19 AM.

  14. #14
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Blerv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kbuzbee View Post
    I'd guess you are right about 58-61 Blake but I'm with Travis and would love to see it hit 63-64.

    And yes, I understand there are issues taking it that hard, both for production and for the ELU. But (IMO) this is not your average knife (or steel) and I think it should really be allowed to shine.

    IIRC Kershaw did a run of Shallots in S110V a couple years ago. I think those were around 61 and the comments were 'it's just like S90V' A fine steel, please don't misunderstand. But if S110V is to really differentiate itself, I think it needs to be a bit harder.

    Ken
    Duly noted Ken . That seems reasonable while perhaps 64 is the upper end for a manufactured knife and target audience. I think some of those Kershaws were in the 58-59 range even. At least by a thread I stumbled upon. I'm just guessing really, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ankerson View Post
    Around 63 HRC (62-63) would be optimal for a production knife due to compressive yield strength, that's something that is very important.

    We will have to wait and see what Sal does with it though, I am sure we will be pleased with the results.
    I did some digging and came to a similar thought. It seems a good target based on personal testimonies (none of mine).

    I understand that Crucible often sets the target RC range lower than quality manufacturers and much lower than guys like Wilson. Also didn't want to fall into the "just add 5 points" theme due to the list of cons.
    Blake

  15. #15
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Ankerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blerv View Post
    Duly noted Ken . That seems reasonable while perhaps 64 is the upper end for a manufactured knife and target audience. I think some of those Kershaws were in the 58-59 range even. At least by a thread I stumbled upon. I'm just guessing really, lol.



    I did some digging and came to a similar thought. It seems a good target based on personal testimonies (none of mine).

    I understand that Crucible often sets the target RC range lower than quality manufacturers and much lower than guys like Wilson. Also didn't want to fall into the "just add 5 points" theme due to the list of cons.
    Trying to be reasonable because it's a production knife and 62-63 should be obtainable and taking into count that the Native 5 has a 3" blade so it's not like it's going to be used as a chopper so the hardness could be pushed a little higher.

    It all will depend on the process used and if the steel is CYRO treated.

    I wouldn't expect them to hit the 63-64 range in a production knife realistically so the 62-63 range would provide a good balance.

    That 58-60 range is like running a race car with 4 flat tires.......

  16. #16
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    Mr. Ankerson,
    Thanks for weighing in!
    Four flat tires, that makes my morning. Even better than "someone's" butter soft. LOL.
    Seems linear vs exponential increase in performance values of HRC values is not always understood.
    Best...

  17. #17
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Ankerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Allen View Post
    Mr. Ankerson,
    Thanks for weighing in!
    Four flat tires, that makes my morning. Even better than "someone's" butter soft. LOL.
    Seems linear vs exponential increase in performance values of HRC values is not always understood.
    Best...

    Lets just say S90V at 60 would be a lot better than S110V would be in that 58-60 range and leave it at that.

    I couldn't believe how bad S110V was at that low hardness in the knives I tested..... Compared to the others I tested in the higher ranges.

    It's like it's not even the same steel at all comparing 58-60 to 63-64..... It is that different....

  18. #18
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Ankerson's Avatar
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    One of the most interesting things about S110V at optimal hardness range is that it holds that hair popping edge for a very long time, it's very fine grained.

    It doesn't seem to lose that high level of sharpness as fast as some people would think it would, compared to other steels like M390, XHP, Super Blue, ZDP-189 etc.

    S110V is a completely different animal altogether and is really in a class by itself.

  19. #19
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Ankerson's Avatar
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    Some testing figures of Customs in M390 vs S110V on 5/8" Manila rope just for fun and general reference.

    The M390 knife had the advantage of being .005" thinner behind the edge than the S110V knife.


    The M390 blade was .005" behind the edge and at 62 HRC.

    S110V was at .010" behind the edge and at 63.5 HRC.


    M390 at 360 Cuts - 13 LBS

    S110V at 360 Cuts - 11 LBS


    M390 at 1000 cuts - 20 LBS

    S110V at 1000 cuts - 15 LBS


    Adding a more normal steel, N690 also in a custom and .010" behind the edge to show how much of a real difference there really is.

    360 Cuts - 19 LBS
    Last edited by Ankerson; 04-11-2013 at 10:06 AM.

  20. #20
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    I really look forward to adding this to my EDC rotation. Have to admit it will be my first in S110V. I love my GB with M4, and I have many ofher fine steels to chose from, but this will be great. Hope it makes it way into a few other models.
    Cheers...

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