M4

[kbuzbee]

BM has a Cerakote on their M4 blades

I have a black coated BM Ritter Mini Grip. It's a nice knife but for whatever reason I don't get as good an edge on it as I do my Spydie M4s. Maybe Sal runs them harder (this has been suggested a couple times)? Dunno. All I know is I love my Spydie M4s and the Ritter sits in the drawer.

Ken

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

From some of the things I have seen over the net and on various forums over the last couple eyars it does seem the BM runs things a little softer a good portion of the time. And I do prefer M4 (and most of my steels) at the higher hardnesses. So I would say get a Spydie in M4, use Tuf-Glide. You will be fine. Just make sure that you reapply every couple months depending on use.

[gaj999]

... So I would say get a Spydie in M4, use Tuf-Glide. You will be fine. Just make sure that you reapply every couple months depending on use.

I like patinas and I cut food with mine, so no Tuf-Glide for me. Mineral oil is the go to for food cutters, but I don't even do that.

Gordon

[DCDesigns]

I chose to compare M4 to S30V and M390 because those are the two steels I am most familiar with (along with 154CM). That way I can understand the differences.

How do you mean "not in the same league" ?

Oh ok, I was just curious.

If you will refer to Jim Ankersons thread on edge retention/ steel ratings youll find M390 at the top of the pack, and s30v somewhere in the middle next to m4. M4 and S30v are somewhat close, with M4 winning out one toughness and edge retention, but being slightly harder to sharpen. M390 is far beyond m4 and s30v in terms of edge retention.

S30v is like it or not pretty much mainstream, or a "standard" in the industry. Comparatively m390 is considered a more exotic "super" steel by some.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

Oh ok, I was just curious.

If you will refer to Jim Ankersons thread on edge retention/ steel ratings youll find M390 at the top of the pack, and s30v somewhere in the middle next to m4. M4 and S30v are somewhat close, with M4 winning out one toughness and edge retention, but being slightly harder to sharpen. M390 is far beyond m4 and s30v in terms of edge retention.

S30v is like it or not pretty much mainstream, or a "standard" in the industry. Comparatively m390 is considered a more exotic "super" steel by some.

M4 is right up there with M390. Depending on hardness it matches it for edge retention. I would say that on average M390 and M4 are pretty much evenly matched for edge retention. (Depending on hardness both are in Category 1 & 2 of Ankerson's test)

S30V...is well below both. In Category 5.

[Blerv]

No offense to Jim but his categorizing of blade steels is based on a specific context. Namely it's edge retention based on manila rope cutting in a very controlled environment hence his results can be accurately compared.

What it doesn't display is the nuances of certain steels which may be better for certain people. Folks less empathetic to the edge would be better off going with M4 over M390. They would probably be more impressed with CPM-3v over M4 but to date only one folder has been released on a production basis. For those looking for edge retention without the hassle of patina M390 or S90v would be a better pick. CPM-S30v has a serious advantage over all of them being a premium steel that is available for just around 154cm pricing...which means you can pick up a Para2 in it for $97 instead of $175ish.

Since I'm a broke bloke I prefer ZDP-189 for my snobby needs. If Golden starts doing sprints of the Manix2 Lightweight in different steels the tune will change but to date it's hard to argue with a $68 Delica in ZDP. It's the Lotus Elise of snobbery; grind it thin and keep it sharp.

[Wolverine666]

"Lotus Elise of snobbery"... Hahaha. Blerv , I like the way you think.

[Zenith]

Yes, Ed said that. Lets keep it in perspective though. What the competition chopper goes through does not compare in any way to what the folders we carry go through. I don't know what the impact would be in pounds per square inch but it must be pretty high considering the force, the speed of the swing, and the thinness of the edge making the impact with whatever it hits.

Edit: Found it


Even so the knives are lasting for what is a relatively long time before their work hardened edge causes it to need to be retired. Not many steels with the wear resistance of CPM M4 can take the stresses involved. 52100 has great edge stability but no way near the wear resistance of CPM M4. Apparently they can't sharpen the edges during a competition which is what caused them to look at M4 in the first place.

With the competition knives great care must be taken when making the knives to insure no stress fractures, bends or imperfections make it through. It also needs to be heat treated pretty precisely to keep it from warping, overheating, under heating, time at temp., as well as things like final hardness which is important too. I'm pretty sure more than a few perfect knives have been broken to look at the grain structure. I've left out a whole bunch of important things that I've forgotten, or don't even know about.

Is it any wonder that most of the really successful competitors are very advanced level knife makers themselves, often with sponsorships to help with the costs.

Ed was or is using a clad steel in his. I don't have any information about this and hope he gets involved in this thread. He is about as knowledgeable as one can be.

Typically the higher the wear resistance in a steel the higher the carbide fraction. Also, typically the higher the carbide fraction the lower the toughness and edge stability.

There are, I don't want to say exceptions. I'll call them "work arounds" . A clad steel custom made can be one. It can be pulled off by someone like Ed who has advanced knowledge of not only regular knifemaking, but also Damascus making , and "san mai" ( three layer) steels.

Anyways, I got slightly off topic. CPM M4 is not too weak for our uses. I have no problem keeping it rust and stain free. I too love that "bite" the carbides give it. It's another steel that can take a savage edge and I hope to see it in the regular lineup for a while.

If you hear the steel is not tough enough for competition choppers it doesn't mean anything about cutlery with normal uses. Competition choppers are to regular knives what Baja 500 tube frame "toyota" hand builds are to off the line Tundras.

By the way, I wasn't aware that 52100 is used in competition choppers. The edge stability is there but the wear resistance would be lacking in some of the really trying events. I've heard 3V is too, and it has better wear than 52100.

There is lots I need to learn about the sport. If I'm not mistaken a chip in the edge disqualifies you. Think about that when you see film of some of these thick wristed, huge forearmed guys getting amazing speed in their swings while cutting through everything from ping pong balls to framing lumber.

CPM M4 has done pretty well as have some other steels.

Joe

I agree, M4 is more then tough enough for my uses and I am sure many others as well. IMO it is one element that becomes over hyped out of a complete package. Like choclate chip cookies, it is not only the chip (toughnes) that is delicious, it is the complete package that makes it appealing.



One element I think that might be of great importance for the cookie of M4 is

Molybdenum (Mo): A carbide former, prevents brittleness & maintains the steel's strength at high temperatures. Improves machinability and resistance to corrosion (Zknives.com).

[gull wing]

I like CPM M4 when Spyderco does the hardning. It's a super sharp blade.
My M4 knives from another mfg are not so pleasing, they don't seem to stay as sharp as long.... Don't know why.

[Wolverine666]

I think I will stick with Spyderco M4 blades as opposed to other manufacturers. People I have heard from all seem to agree that Spyderco has the M4 down to an exact science as far as the heat treat goes. Thus creating a sharper blade with better edge retention.

When I'm tired of my Para2 and my new SuperLeaf I will then look into an M4 Spydie.

[dbcad]

I have to recomend Spyderco M4 My first generation Bradley holds a very sharp edge very well with a high hollow grind.

Can't say anything about other manufacturers. As mentioned before I do believe HT can make a large difference. M4 seems to be very good stuff with a Spyderco treatment

[Slash]

Refer to the nuntfancy YouTube video shot show 2010 which Mr. Schempp talks about various steels. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSpRJ...e_gdata_player

[gaj999]

If you will refer to Jim Ankersons thread on edge retention/ steel ratings youll find M390 at the top of the pack, and s30v somewhere in the middle next to m4. M4 and S30v are somewhat close, with M4 winning out one toughness and edge retention, but being slightly harder to sharpen. M390 is far beyond m4 and s30v in terms of edge retention.

Um, not even close. M4 leaves S30V so far in the dust in every category I care about that I could live happily ever after without another S30V blade. Now if you want an inexpensive steel with a toothy edge that cuts reasonably well when it's somewhat dull, S30V is a good pick.

Gordon

[chuck_roxas45]

Um, not even close. M4 leaves S30V so far in the dust in every category I care about that I could live happily ever after without another S30V blade. Now if you want an inexpensive steel with a toothy edge that cuts reasonably well when it's somewhat dull, S30V is a good pick.

Gordon

While I agree with that, I would take a knife in s30v with a design I like over an M4 knife whose design I don't like as much.

[Blerv]

While I agree with that, I would take a knife in s30v with a design I like over an M4 knife whose design I don't like as much.

Heck ya. And pickings are slim considering it's corrosion properties leave it in the minority of blade buyers.

My biggest prob with s30 is factory grinds. The Chap might be the answer because my bros reground Sage2 is a beast.

[chuck_roxas45]

Heck ya. And pickings are slim considering it's corrosion properties leave it in the minority of blade buyers.

My biggest prob with s30 is factory grinds. The Chap might be the answer because my bros reground Sage2 is a beast.

A longer knife in 2mm S30V might be the ticket. Or Tom Krein could do wonders for a sage 1.

[JNewell]

I think I will stick with Spyderco M4 blades as opposed to other manufacturers. People I have heard from all seem to agree that Spyderco has the M4 down to an exact science as far as the heat treat goes. Thus creating a sharper blade with better edge retention.

When I'm tired of my Para2 and my new SuperLeaf I will then look into an M4 Spydie.

For what it's worth, the "other company" that does a lot of M4 blades has raised its target Rc range for M4 blades to 62-64Rc in the last year or so. I havent tried to compare their new production and I don't recall seeing any comparative tests.

[gaj999]

While I agree with that, I would take a knife in s30v with a design I like over an M4 knife whose design I don't like as much.

Good point. I have so many knives now that I can afford to be picky. But if the right one comes along, it could be made from tinfoil and I'd probably buy it.

A longer knife in 2mm S30V might be the ticket. Or Tom Krein could do wonders for a sage 1.

Something like that would really get my attention. There are way too few 2mm blades out there from Spyderco. Now a 2mm FFG M4 blade with a thin edge and a needle point would really get me jumping up and down.

Gordon

[chuck_roxas45]

Something like that would really get my attention. There are way too few 2mm blades out there from Spyderco. Now a 2mm FFG M4 blade with a thin edge and a needle point would really get me jumping up and down.

Gordon

Oh yah!

[Wolverine666]

For what it's worth, the "other company" that does a lot of M4 blades has raised its target Rc range for M4 blades to 62-64Rc in the last year or so. I havent tried to compare their new production and I don't recall seeing any comparative tests.

Oh good to know. Thanks for the heads up. I'm brand new to M4 so whether it's a Spyderco or a blade from "another company" it's definitely a learning process for me.

Also , as far as corrosion resistance on M4 , I think I'd be perfectly happy with a nice coat of Tuf-Glide on the blade. From what everyone here has said at least. I live right on the ocean and do not want any kind of rust or patina on the M4 blade so Tuf-Glide seems to be the perfect preventive maintenance .