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Thread: Sharpmaker and ZDP-189

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    Sharpmaker and ZDP-189

    I'm going to buy my first spiderco, it's gonna be a delica zdp-189.
    Together with it i buy a sharpmaker but have a question about the sharpmaker ...

    Will the stones which comes with the sharpmaker be good enough to sharpen the zdp-189 steel ?
    Because of what i understand the factory is around 30 degrees but isn't precise 30 degrees.
    So if you are going to sharpen you zdp steel for the first time with the sharpmaker (30 degrees) and the edge is a little different from the factory, are you going to have a problem with the medium stone to get the right edge ?
    My idea would be to sharpen the delica zdp-189 the first time with diamond stones to get the right angle.
    The following times i can maintain the steel with the medium and fine stones.
    Or is it not nescasarry to buy the diamond stones apart and will the medium stone sharpen the zdp-189 steel just fine ?

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User chuck_roxas45's Avatar
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    Just go with the 40 setting. Rebeveling ZDP would be laborious. My ZDP Endura did come with a bevel around 30 or less because I was able to touch it up with the 30 setting.
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    You can use the medium stones, but it is a pretty serious time commitment.

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User jackknifeh's Avatar
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    I don't have a sharpmaker but I do use the Spyderco stones. Like Chuck said if you use the 40 deg setting you should be able to keep the Delica sharp. You probably won't need to worry about it for a while though. It will come sharp.

    However, if you own ZDP you should get something coarser than the medium Sharpmaker stones. Since you are getting the Shaprmaker I'd recommend you get the diamond stones now if you can. If not, you can wait but I think you will want them sooner or later. In fact I think you will want them anyway for all knives. They will save a ton of time whenever you need to reprofile (change edge angle) the edge on a knife.

    Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your choice. I know you will love the Delica.

    Are you getting the FFG Delica? Better make sure. There are still some saber grind Delicas available. They are nice but you don't want to get one if you are wanting the FFG knife.

    Jack

    My EDC for a while. Stretch with carbon fiber handle, Chaparral 2, Dragonfly 2 with kirinite MOP handle, Manbug with bolster/red bone handle. Super blue/420J1 blades on all three (except Chaparral).

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    My idea was indeed to get the diamond stones together with the sharpmaker, will also get a leather strop to make things smooth : )
    But i prefer an angle of 30 degrees because it's sharper than 40 degrees, i know a 40 degree edge will hold longer.
    And i find that if you have a high end steel such as zdp-189 you have to sharpen it with 30 degrees to get the full potention of the steel, and the knife comes from the factory with this angle more of less, that's why i thought to get diamond stones for the first time to get the right angle. Once the angle is right i can maintain it with the medium and fine stones, good idea or not so ?

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User kennethsime's Avatar
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    Here's a question, hope it's not taking the thread too far off topic:

    I often hear it said that as long as you don't take ZDP below a certain angle, it won't chip out on you much. My ZDP with a factory edge does chip here and there (still a working edge of course). My question is, what angle is this, and is the Sharpmaker capable of it?

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User dbcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennethsime View Post
    Here's a question, hope it's not taking the thread too far off topic:

    I often hear it said that as long as you don't take ZDP below a certain angle, it won't chip out on you much. My ZDP with a factory edge does chip here and there (still a working edge of course). My question is, what angle is this, and is the Sharpmaker capable of it?
    From what I've read a more accurate read on blade materials happens after the blade has been reprofiled once or twice. ZDP is a strange animal.
    Charlie

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User Blerv's Avatar
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    I think the standard Sharpmaker is good sharpening for ZDP-189 but it's a bit more of a time commitment than some steels. The brown stones will cut any steel.

    The edge geometry for Spyderco knives is generally excellent and the Delicia is quite thin among them. Plug in a good movie and go to work . If the blade isn't quite even but close to 30 degrees you won't have to do nearly as much grinding as if it was an even 40.

    ZDP-189 will chip at thin angles but so can any steel. I've chipped VG10 before. That said unlike many it will actually be stable at that angle without rolling if you glance at it wrong. You run a VERY hard steel thin and push past it's elastic range by hitting impurities or using excessive pressure and that's what can happen. Sharpening stones fix the problem though and thin blades recover much easier.
    Last edited by Blerv; 05-27-2012 at 01:35 PM.
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    Spyderco Forum Registered User razorsharp's Avatar
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    If you are gonna reprofile, I suggest putting 220 or 320 grit sandpaper on the rods
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    Spyderco Forum Registered User dbcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blerv View Post
    I think the standard Sharpmaker is good sharpening for ZDP-189 but it's a bit more of a time commitment than some steels. The brown stones will cut any steel.

    The edge geometry for Spyderco knives is generally excellent and the Delicia is quite thin among them. Plug in a good movie and go to work . If the blade isn't quite even but close to 30 degrees you won't have to do nearly as much grinding as if it was an even 40.

    ZDP-189 will chip at thin angles but so can any steel. I've chipped VG10 before. That said unlike many it will actually be stable at that angle without rolling if you glance at it wrong. You run a VERY hard steel thin and push past it's elastic range by hitting impurities or using excessive pressure and that's what can happen. Sharpening stones fix the problem though and thin blades recover much easier.
    Agree completely. Razorsharp also had a good tip.

    With ZDP a good strategy is to keep it sharp. The SM will help do that well.

    As mentioned before light pressure is the key with this material. If you push too hard on it and build up a large burr you will take the edge off with the burr. The stuff likes to stick to itself.

    I reprofiled a Dfly ZDP after it came in with a bunged up edge about a year ago, and with help from the forum was able to get it razorsharp It is a challenging material for me. Keeping it sharp with a strop or the UF stones is very easy
    Charlie

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User jackknifeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bios View Post
    My idea was indeed to get the diamond stones together with the sharpmaker, will also get a leather strop to make things smooth : )
    But i prefer an angle of 30 degrees because it's sharper than 40 degrees, i know a 40 degree edge will hold longer.
    And i find that if you have a high end steel such as zdp-189 you have to sharpen it with 30 degrees to get the full potention of the steel, and the knife comes from the factory with this angle more of less, that's why i thought to get diamond stones for the first time to get the right angle. Once the angle is right i can maintain it with the medium and fine stones, good idea or not so ?
    Very good idea to reprofile very soon. I wouldn't do it right away though. First, your knife should come very sharp. Just use it and enjoy it. I like to give a brand new knife a couple of days (at least) use to be sure there is nothing wrong with it from the factory. This happens VERY rarely but it can happen. Also, when I got my first ZDP blade I had a hard time getting it sharp after it had lost it's razor edge. In general it's the same as sharpening as any steel but it takes longer because it is a lot harder. I had to learn patience with it. Then it wasn't a problem at all.

    I have a problem using ZDP with an edge angle of 30. The edge gets micro chips which bug me. They don't take away from the sharpness or usefullness of the blade, it's just aggrevating. Using a micro-bevel of 40 on the edge will strengthen the edge and still cut VERY well if you have the 30 back bevel. Lots of discussion on this. Different opinions also. You will have to see what you like as you use your knife.

    Jack

    My EDC for a while. Stretch with carbon fiber handle, Chaparral 2, Dragonfly 2 with kirinite MOP handle, Manbug with bolster/red bone handle. Super blue/420J1 blades on all three (except Chaparral).

  12. #12
    Spyderco Forum Registered User jackknifeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennethsime View Post
    Here's a question, hope it's not taking the thread too far off topic:

    I often hear it said that as long as you don't take ZDP below a certain angle, it won't chip out on you much. My ZDP with a factory edge does chip here and there (still a working edge of course). My question is, what angle is this, and is the Sharpmaker capable of it?
    Sharpmaker is very capable of taking care of ZDP-189. The perfect edge angle for ZDP-189 is 37.38 degrees inclusive. Just kidding.

    I'd recommend when using a sharpmaker to sharpen the edge to 30 degrees and use the knife. If you don't have much chipping, great. You will have a slicing demon. Several people here say they keep their ZDP as low as 30 degrees with no problems. If you do tend to get chips on the edge you can increase the very edge to 40 degrees. That should take care of any micro chips that ZDP is prone to IMO. I like for the edge angle to be closer to 36 degrees but 40 is fine. I don't go below 36 degrees with ZDP and 40 isn't different enough for it to really matter. I think the chipping may differ based on how people use their knives. Putting more side pressure on the edge will cause the edge to chip.

    Jack

    My EDC for a while. Stretch with carbon fiber handle, Chaparral 2, Dragonfly 2 with kirinite MOP handle, Manbug with bolster/red bone handle. Super blue/420J1 blades on all three (except Chaparral).

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    Thanks a lot guys for all your answers, learned a lot new things about the steel and sharpmaker
    A whole other question now;

    Is it possible to change the scales of the delica 4 ? (i love carbon fiber scales, makes the delica also more classy)

  14. #14
    Spyderco Forum Registered User jackknifeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bios View Post
    Thanks a lot guys for all your answers, learned a lot new things about the steel and sharpmaker
    A whole other question now;

    Is it possible to change the scales of the delica 4 ? (i love carbon fiber scales, makes the delica also more classy)
    It's difficult. The FRN scales are "nested". The liners are nested into the FRN. Notice you don't see the liner from the outside of the handle. CF scales sit on the liner and you can see the edge of the liner all the way around the handle. You would need to know what you are doing and be good at it to replace the FRN with CF. I don't think it's impossible though. The only thing that is easy is replacing different color FRN scales from different Delica4 knives. I think this is right but there are people who know more than me.

    Jack

    My EDC for a while. Stretch with carbon fiber handle, Chaparral 2, Dragonfly 2 with kirinite MOP handle, Manbug with bolster/red bone handle. Super blue/420J1 blades on all three (except Chaparral).

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    Ok, i'll understand.
    It has not to to complicated.
    I may even go for the Sage1 instead the delica, pfff man, choices, choices .... but then i find the Sage2 or Sage2 also very attrictive...arghhh.

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User jackknifeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bios View Post
    Ok, i'll understand.
    It has not to to complicated.
    I may even go for the Sage1 instead the delica, pfff man, choices, choices .... but then i find the Sage2 or Sage2 also very attrictive...arghhh.
    Ha Ha Ha. Thought you were going to get off easy with an easy decision? That's what I thought too, about 30 knives ago. Personally, I like the Sage1 better than the Delica and the Delica is a great knife. The Sage series fits my hand better. I like the 50/50 finger choil (half handle/half blade). It really lets you get into your cutting.

    I bet one thing. After you agonize long enough and make a decision you will be very happy, whatever knife the decision puts into your hand. Spyderco has a habit of doing that.

    Jack

    My EDC for a while. Stretch with carbon fiber handle, Chaparral 2, Dragonfly 2 with kirinite MOP handle, Manbug with bolster/red bone handle. Super blue/420J1 blades on all three (except Chaparral).

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    The Sage was my very first choice (2 weeks ago) and since then i have been looking to a lot of knives, delica, paramilitary 2, some knives from benchmade and ZT.
    But i always come back to SPyderco, there's something about them A lot of knife for not a lot of money compared with others.
    Ok, the Sage it will be (for now anyway), but which one, ohh man, why don't i own some more cash !
    I like the Sage 1 for the carbon (classy look) and the Sage 2 for the simplicity and framelock and the Sage 4 for the classic look, only don't like the smurf sage (i hate smurfs).
    Jack, i have read that you own the Sage 4 in another topic, how is the knife wearing off, can you tell me something about that and maybe you have a picture of it after it has been used a while ?
    Think the Sage2 will also wear off fast.
    Also it will be my EDC knife so i don't wanne be that carefull with it, it has to do whatever i demand of it, do it knife !
    Maybe there are some pictures around of some sage2 and sage4 which had been used a while, that will be great.

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User jackknifeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bios View Post
    The Sage was my very first choice (2 weeks ago) and since then i have been looking to a lot of knives, delica, paramilitary 2, some knives from benchmade and ZT.
    But i always come back to SPyderco, there's something about them A lot of knife for not a lot of money compared with others.
    Ok, the Sage it will be (for now anyway), but which one, ohh man, why don't i own some more cash !
    I like the Sage 1 for the carbon (classy look) and the Sage 2 for the simplicity and framelock and the Sage 4 for the classic look, only don't like the smurf sage (i hate smurfs).
    Jack, i have read that you own the Sage 4 in another topic, how is the knife wearing off, can you tell me something about that and maybe you have a picture of it after it has been used a while ?
    Think the Sage2 will also wear off fast.
    Also it will be my EDC knife so i don't wanne be that carefull with it, it has to do whatever i demand of it, do it knife !
    Maybe there are some pictures around of some sage2 and sage4 which had been used a while, that will be great.
    From what you have written I believe you want the Sage4. I believe it has the most liked features of two of my favorite knives. Sage1 and Gayle Bradley. The Sage4 has the same handle thickness as the Sage1. The Sage4 is quite a bit heavier. When you pick it up you know you have picked something up. Personally, I like that in a knife. So, other than weight it feels the same as the Sage1 and has the same blade length. The GB is a VERY solid, durable, tough knife. If there is anything wrong with it I think it's too pretty to be a hard use knife which it is capable of. The ONLY thing I don't like about the GB for a one and only EDC knife is the blade is just a bit longer than I like. Sage4 with 3" is the perfect length for me. The Sage4 feels as durable as the GB when I use it. Sage4 has the most solid feeling back lock I've ever owned. When it locks you feel it and hear it. The spring to unlock it is stronger than others. That gets a bit easier with use. Also, after a week or two of keeping it VERY VERY oiled and adjusting the pivot now the blade will fall down with a TINY flick when I release the lock. That's how I like it to be adjusted. The free swinging blade like a Manix2 is a manufacturing yee-haw but I think it's a little unsafe. My right index finger thinks the same thing. Now, I don't need to keep it VERY VERY oiled. Just a drop or two every once in a while. I'm using Nano-oil now which is VERY nice so far after a month or so. I can even tighten the pivot more to reduce or eliminate blade play but the blade still pivots easily. Most people (including myself) believe using as much oil as I do on a knife is not needed or even bad. But, I've found it seems to speed up the break-in period of the pivot on a new knife. After that, I go back to normal use of oil. Right or wrong that's what I do for just a week or so.

    The love I have for the knife is only getting stronger with time and use.

    I love to carry the Chaparral and GB as a pair. I can use the Chaparral when the tasks are normal duty or when a small knife may be better so people don't running away screaming and waving their hands in the air. The GB is in another pocket in case I need to chop down a tree. The Sage4 fills both categories IMO. It still is a little big for NKP but there aren't that many of those where I live (lots of hunting and fishing). I don't worry about NKP much anyway. I'm legal.

    I'll stop. Summary: Sage4 good.

    Jack
    Last edited by jackknifeh; 05-28-2012 at 10:12 AM.

    My EDC for a while. Stretch with carbon fiber handle, Chaparral 2, Dragonfly 2 with kirinite MOP handle, Manbug with bolster/red bone handle. Super blue/420J1 blades on all three (except Chaparral).

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    Thanks Jack for your extensive reply, much appreciated ! (man, i hope my spelling is fine, time for some English lessons here)
    Only thing about the Sage4 is the vertical play on the blade which you discussed in another thread, that bothers me much.
    And how is the wearing of the knife, scratches on the wood or titanium ?
    Ps the bradley knife is also a nice knife which got my attention

  20. #20
    Spyderco Forum Registered User jackknifeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bios View Post
    Thanks Jack for your extensive reply, much appreciated ! (man, i hope my spelling is fine, time for some English lessons here)
    Only thing about the Sage4 is the vertical play on the blade which you discussed in another thread, that bothers me much.
    And how is the wearing of the knife, scratches on the wood or titanium ?
    Ps the bradley knife is also a nice knife which got my attention
    The first Sage4 I had did develope vertical play. Just a tiny bit. A few days later the blade would not stay in the handle. Possibly the spring slid out of place. I sent it to Spyderco and they replaced it. The one I have now I've had for about a week and it is PERFECT. NO VERTICAL OR HORIZONTAL PLAY. It is solid as a rock. I think the first one was one of those that just happens once in a while.

    Titanium shows scratches more than other metals. I found this out with the Sage4. Apparently it is just a trait of the metal. I t doesn't bother me because I don't consider this a "dress" knife. But if that would bother you, it may not be the knife for you. The first one would just have another scratch once in a while without me doing anything to cause it. Or, not anything that would scratch normal stainless steel or any blade steel. So I don't even know when or how some of the scratches came from. I believe if you kept the knife in your pocket (clipless) with your keys it would be scratched a whole lot in just a day or two.

    The Gayle Bradley is also a really great knife. It will not show scratches at all under normal EDC. CF is very durable and the twill texture on the GB is the most attractive IMO and also able to hide most small scratches thay may get on the knife. It also has M4 blade steel. S30V is one of my favorites and M4 is also and holds an edge better. M4 isn't a stainless steel but that's ok with me.

    Jack

    My EDC for a while. Stretch with carbon fiber handle, Chaparral 2, Dragonfly 2 with kirinite MOP handle, Manbug with bolster/red bone handle. Super blue/420J1 blades on all three (except Chaparral).

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