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Thread: Under the microscope

  1. #121
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    Hi Clip,

    Wooo! Aluminum foil!

    Sincerely,
    --Lagrangian
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    "What grit sharpens the mind?"
    --Zen Sharpening Koan

  2. #122
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Clip's Avatar
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    Reynolds Heavy Duty aluminum foil, shiny side first then matte.

    50x -



    100x -



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    1000x -



    Matte

    50x -



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    Click here to zoom: Under the Microscope

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    Chris

  3. #123
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    Wow! Thanks Clip!

    Sincerely,
    --Lagrangian
    --------------------------------
    "What grit sharpens the mind?"
    --Zen Sharpening Koan

  4. #124
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    Hi Clip,

    I'm wondering if you and your microscope are able to take the following type of pictures:

    The microscope looks directly into the cutting edge of the knife. That is, if you got the microscope lense too close, the knife would actually cut into the lense. The reason for doing images like this, if possible, is to measure the actual sharpness of the knife. Prof. Verhoeven did this using an electron microscope, which has an insanely huge depth of focus. I understand, of course, that optical microscopes have a ridiculously shallow depth-of-focus. But since your setup can automatically generate and combine multiple images that are focused at different heights, I thought maybe you could take an image where the top 0.5 microns of the knife apex was in focus.

    Here is an example photo from Prof. Verhoeven's technical report _Experiments on Knife Sharpening_ (2004).
    http://www-archive.mse.iastate.edu/f...nifeShExps.pdf
    In this photo, he is actually able to measure the sharpness of a modern razor. He measures it to be from 0.35 to 0.45 microns. In case the image is confusing: The microscope is looking straight into the knife edge. The diagonal line from top-left to bottom-right is the knife edge itself. And the two bevels of the knife are on either side.


    I don't expect you to be able to have such insanely huge depth of focus. But if you can capture just the top micron or so, that would be enough. Is there any possiblity you could do something similar? If your sample size has to be small, maybe not for a full sized knife, but you could break off part of a razor blade (or any cheap $5 knife from Walmart) to make it small enough.

    Ah sorry, Clip. I keep thinking of more work for you to do, all the time!

    Sincerely,
    --Lagrangian
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    "What grit sharpens the mind?"
    --Zen Sharpening Koan

  5. #125
    Spyderco Forum Registered User MadRookie's Avatar
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    ...wow....how technically deep are you guys going to go....my head is spinning as it is....?????

    NICE!!!


  6. #126
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    Great stuff.

  7. #127
    Spyderco Forum Registered User phillipsted's Avatar
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    That picture on the left looks like an satellite photo of Mount Everest!

    TedP

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillipsted View Post
    That picture on the left looks like an satellite photo of Mount Everest!
    TedP
    Just for fun:

    A human being is about 2 meters high.
    Mount Everest is about 8,800 meters high.
    So Mount Everast is about 4,400x times taller than a person.

    A knife edge is about 0.4 microns sharp.
    So compared to a knife edge, a person is 2/(0.4*10^-6) = 5,000,000x bigger than the knife edge.

    If the knife edge were a mountain-climber, and he needed to climb a human being, then how tall of a mountain would that be? Doing the calculation: 8800*(5,000,000/4,400) = 10^7 meters. So, to a knife edge, a person is a mountain 10,000 kilometers tall.

    In othewords, to a knife edge, a person is a mountain so huge, it is taller than the length of a continent!

    If that did not blow your mind, I think it should. Because when we are sharpening, we are forming an edge so much smaller than ourselves, it is like a world continent reaching out to grab the huge island of Madagascar (1,570 km) and sharpening it down to an apex the size of a single human being (2m). How would a giant the size of a continent even notice the single person at the apex?

    And yet, experienced knife users can tell when their edges are scary-sharp (sub-micron) versus not (maybe a several microns).

    Sincerely,
    --Lagrangian
    --------------------------------
    "What grit sharpens the mind?"
    --Zen Sharpening Koan

  9. #129
    Spyderco Forum Registered User razorsharp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagrangian View Post
    Just for fun:

    A human being is about 2 meters high.
    Mount Everest is about 8,800 meters high.
    So Mount Everast is about 4,400x times taller than a person.

    A knife edge is about 0.4 microns sharp.
    So compared to a knife edge, a person is 2/(0.4*10^-6) = 5,000,000x bigger than the knife edge.

    If the knife edge were a mountain-climber, and he needed to climb a human being, then how tall of a mountain would that be? Doing the calculation: 8800*(5,000,000/4,400) = 10^7 meters. So, to a knife edge, a person is a mountain 10,000 kilometers tall.

    In othewords, to a knife edge, a person is a mountain so huge, it is taller than the length of a continent!

    If that did not blow your mind, I think it should. Because when we are sharpening, we are forming an edge so much smaller than ourselves, it is like a world continent reaching out to grab the huge island of Madagascar (1,570 km) and sharpening it down to an apex the size of a single human being (2m). How would a giant the size of a continent even notice the single person at the apex?

    And yet, experienced knife users can tell when their edges are scary-sharp (sub-micron) versus not (maybe a several microns).

    Sincerely,
    --Lagrangian
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillipsted View Post
    That picture on the left looks like an satellite photo of Mount Everest!

    TedP
    Yea, and it looks like that might be a Yeti den on the near side of the mountain.

  11. #131
    Spyderco Forum Registered User jackknifeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagrangian View Post
    Just for fun:

    A human being is about 2 meters high.
    Mount Everest is about 8,800 meters high.
    So Mount Everast is about 4,400x times taller than a person.

    A knife edge is about 0.4 microns sharp.
    So compared to a knife edge, a person is 2/(0.4*10^-6) = 5,000,000x bigger than the knife edge.

    If the knife edge were a mountain-climber, and he needed to climb a human being, then how tall of a mountain would that be? Doing the calculation: 8800*(5,000,000/4,400) = 10^7 meters. So, to a knife edge, a person is a mountain 10,000 kilometers tall.

    In othewords, to a knife edge, a person is a mountain so huge, it is taller than the length of a continent!

    If that did not blow your mind, I think it should. Because when we are sharpening, we are forming an edge so much smaller than ourselves, it is like a world continent reaching out to grab the huge island of Madagascar (1,570 km) and sharpening it down to an apex the size of a single human being (2m). How would a giant the size of a continent even notice the single person at the apex?

    And yet, experienced knife users can tell when their edges are scary-sharp (sub-micron) versus not (maybe a several microns).

    Sincerely,
    --Lagrangian
    Did all that thinking hurt? Did it leave a mark? I thought Madagascar was a children's movie.

    Seriously, that's an interesting way to illustrate how small a knife edge is and that to some people (who think about it) there is still a big difference between a scary sharp edge and a very sharp edge. Sometimes a very sharp edge just isn't sharp enough. We want scary sharp.

    Jack

    My EDC for a while. Stretch with carbon fiber handle, Chaparral 2, Dragonfly 2 with kirinite MOP handle, Manbug with bolster/red bone handle. Super blue/420J1 blades on all three (except Chaparral).

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackknifeh View Post
    Did all that thinking hurt? Did it leave a mark? I thought Madagascar was a children's movie.
    Jack
    What?! I was giggling like a little child all the way through!

    Sincerely,
    --Lagrangian
    --------------------------------
    "What grit sharpens the mind?"
    --Zen Sharpening Koan

  13. #133
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    If that mountain analogy were a good one, you would either have to use a pretty horribly thick knife edge or have to use a very short human being.

    You can't use a tall human and a very sharp (small) edge.
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  14. #134
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Clip's Avatar
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    I tried to turn the knife upright and it didn't show as much as I hoped. Too much light was reflected off the sides and away from the lens. I'll try to get pictures but they won't be anywhere near the quality of the ones posted above.
    Click here to zoom: Under the Microscope

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    Chris

  15. #135
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    Hi Clip,

    Ah, sorry to hear it was very difficult. But thanks for trying! And we look forward to any images, even of the failed attempts to image the very very edge of the knife. The failed attemps would show us something important about the limits of modern optical metallography microscopes, even with digital processing of mutliple-image stacks.

    Sincerely,
    --Lagrangian
    Last edited by Lagrangian; 05-24-2012 at 08:08 PM.
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    "What grit sharpens the mind?"
    --Zen Sharpening Koan

  16. #136
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    @Clip

    I would like to request a few pictures of a blade/steel of your choice with a deliberately rolled edge (e.g. steeled/sharpened from one side only for ~20 strokes) just so that we can see how that looks on a microscopic level.

    Thanks in advance,

    Connor
    'I ought never to act except in such a way that I can also will that my maxim should become a universal law.'

  17. #137
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Clip's Avatar
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    It's been forever! Got my Edge Pro Apex with the Choseras yesterday and polished up the 154CM Manix2, which already had a decent edge from the Lansky. Matched the angle and went through the 220 EP, 400 C, 1K C, 3K C, 5K C, and 10K C with a light stropping on green compound, then etched with Kaellings quickly to try and give some definition.

    50x



    100x



    200x



    200x with Nomarski prism to add depth



    500x



    500x with Nomarski prism



    1000x with Nomarski prism



    1000x with Nomarski prism

    Click here to zoom: Under the Microscope

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    Chris

  18. #138
    Spyderco Forum Registered User xceptnl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clip View Post
    It's been forever! Got my Edge Pro Apex with the Choseras yesterday and polished up the 154CM Manix2, which already had a decent edge from the Lansky. Matched the angle and went through the 220 EP, 400 C, 1K C, 3K C, 5K C, and 10K C with a light stropping on green compound, then etched with Kaellings quickly to try and give some definition.
    Chris, those finishes look way smoother and the EP seems to make a significantly smoother finish cutting edge. Thanks for your continued update photos. As "connor" stated in a previous post, it would me nice if you could post closeups of any edge issues you experience (rolls or chips). I'm sure 100s of other forum members would gain understanding from such intimate images with the cutting edge.

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  19. #139
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Clip's Avatar
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    Absolutely, I'll throw that knife in my pile to take to work tomorrow and subject it to some abuse. Sorry it's taken a while Connor!
    Click here to zoom: Under the Microscope

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    Chris

  20. #140
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    Thanks Clip. I am sure rolled edges + your photographic skills will make a beautiful yet sinister work of art.
    'I ought never to act except in such a way that I can also will that my maxim should become a universal law.'

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