Sharpening Help

[WalzAaronFFG]

Hey all,

I have a triangle shaprmaker with the standard stones. I have a few knives with bevels that have weird spots or other minor imperfections that I would like to repair on my user knives..

The coarse brown stones just don't seem to remove enough material to ever work, so I was looking at the diamond hones for the sharpmaker.

I'm just a little lost here. I have seen posts of users on the forum with PERFECT bevels and a shiney polished edge.

I aspire to sharpen like this... any advice you have would be much appreciated.

[mongatu]

The perfect mirror polished bevels are frequently the product of a guided angle system like the EdgePro Apex (which is considerably more expensive than the Sharpmaker), although a skilled Sharpmaker user can also produce very even bevels. However, the Sharpmaker ceramics alone (even with UF rods) are not fine enough to produce a true brilliant mirror finish. You have to use finer grit abrasives than the fine or UF rods to get to that level of polish.

Also, at the other extreme, the brown ceramic "medium" Sharpmaker rods don't really cut fast enough for reprofiling or setting new bevels, imo, although some people, with a lot of time, effort, and patience, can make them work. But the optional diamond rods are very helpful in this regard, if you are going to use the Sharpmaker for this purpose. The diamond rods cut much much faster than the brown ceramic rods and enable the Sharpmaker to be a more practical tool for resetting bevels.

When using the diamond rods (or any diamond stones for that matter), use very little (i.e., very light) pressure . . . let the diamonds do the work. If you use too much pressure, the diamonds are likely to become loose in their matrix and the rods will probably not last as long as they otherwise would/should.

Another tip when using the diamond rods is to stop every now and then to check the scratch pattern left by the diamond abrasives. You will usually see it gradually move closer and closer towards the edge as you make progress. Imo, it's best to stop using the diamond rods and switch to the medium ceramics just before you hit the actual edge and thus avoid creating a burr with the diamonds. I think it wastes steel to create a large burr with the coarse diamond abrasives, and if you pay attention to the scratch pattern, it's really pretty easy to take it right up to the edge but stop just before a burr is created with the diamonds. Then you can switch to the brown ceramics and create a smaller burr and consume less metal from the edge than you would if you just kept going until a big burr was created with the diamond rods.

[WalzAaronFFG]

Thanks for the informative reply, I really appreciate it. So if I was going to use my sharpmaker with the diamond hones, how would I fix a small part of a bevel on a FFG blade?

My Delica 4 FFG has a nice bevel right up until it gets near the SPYDERCO stamp, then it gets semi blunt rather than gradual, and cuts horribly in that particular spot. I tried to take a photo, but the blade is too polished and reflective to show you what I mean.

I just want to make that small area match the bevel on the rest of the blade.

Would I use the backbevel setting and try to work that one single spot to match the rest of the bevel?

Thanks again for taking the time to respond,

Aaron

[jackknifeh]

It sounds like you are describing something I've seen on a couple of knives, even brand new. Does it look like the blade was held up to a power grinder a little longer than the rest of the blade? If so the area around the "spot" will need to be sharpened down to where the "spot" is being hit with the stone. This could mean removing a lot of steel from perfectly good parts of the edge. Instead of doing that I have sharpened the "spot" just enough to get it to cut. Then as time goes on, after a number of sharpenings the rest of the edge will get closer to where the "spot" is getting sharpened with the rest of the edge. Depending on how deep the spot is may determine what you use to sharpen it. You may need to just use the corner of the Sharpmaker rods to get into what I'm picturing as a "re-curve" edge. Actually, this shape of edge is desireable to some people. I have a knife with a "S" shaped edge. It has a slight recurve from the heel to the belly and then the standard shape to the tip. It's nice for cutting rope. Not like a hawkbill but kind of close. It does sound like you need the diamond rods though. One think about diamond stones is they require a break-in period. They feel VERY coarse at first then after several sharpenings they feel like they may not be cutting steel at all but they are. Just check your edge often to make sure you don't remove too much steel because you don't think much steel is being removed. I also agree with Mongatu about stop using the diamond rod just before hitting the very edge.

I think to get the high mirror polish you want is to get a pair of UF white rods for your Sharpmaker and a good strop also. I have one UF rod and it works great for touch-ups to keep a slightly dull edge razor sharp again with little effort. I've been VERY impressed with how Spyderco's ceramic stones perform. For a strop I bought some leather from a web site at a good price (I thought) and use DMT diamond paste. The 1 micron does a really good job. Leather I like for strops because it "forms" to the shape of the bevel. I have cow hide which is soft and "forms" nicely to the bevel. I've though about getting something coarser to polish the bevel (25 micron or so). It would remove small scratches better than the 1 micron paste if there still are any I think. Horse hide which is much harder is what I use for the very edge to "finalize" the sharpness. There are other companies that make diamond paste but I've been using DMT products and they are top shelf in performance. So, I probably won't try another company unless they are really cheap or some people whose opinion I trust say it performs as good or better. I hope this helps but remember this, I'm not an expert. I've only come to what I think in the past 2 or 3 years or so. I will say that a LOT of what I've learned has come from people on this forum.

Jack

[mongatu]

I was going to suggest something similar. Separately sharpen the "spot" in question but overlapping enough to keep it smoothly transitioning into the rest of the edge. Then over time and repeated sharpenings you can gradually completely even it up, thereby avoiding wasting a bunch of steel just for cosmetic purposes.

[dbcad]

Some magnification of the area might help. VG-10 likes to roll rather than chip. Simply steeling it might or might not not be helpful depending on what the actual cause is. I would identify the reason first. Lee Valley offers a pretty decent 15X lighted loupe for about $35 that really helps you see the edge

As for sharpening itself it depends on the individual. There is some talent that can come into play, but if you're coming at it from the ground floor (me ) it might take a little effort and time, have to add I'm not particularly talented The SM is a good tool for this. I was able to get decent edges quickly but still find I have to improve my technique. I have an inexpensive guided diamond stone system also now, but find that takes some knowledge and technique to use effectively also and use the SM to put on the finishing bevel. You will also want to know how various steels react. Some especially the exotic ones can have interesting behavior in my newbie eyes

Hopefully I've been a little informative if incompletely Time for dinner

[chuck_roxas45]

Things like what the OP is talking about used to bother me no end when I was just getting into spydies. When I really started to use my knives, I found that these cosmetic blems don't really matter. I now tend to ignore things that don't affect perfomance. I don't usually cut with the last half inch on the heel of the blade anyway.

[WalzAaronFFG]

It sounds like you are describing something I've seen on a couple of knives, even brand new. Does it look like the blade was held up to a power grinder a little longer than the rest of the blade? If so the area around the "spot" will need to be sharpened down to where the "spot" is being hit with the stone.

No it is kind of the opposite. The majority of the edge has a nice clean bevel, but as it gets closer to the tang of the blade the bevel gets "fatter" and makes the area directly behind the edge too thick to do any fine cutting tasks. For example, if I was whittling with the small portion of the blade that is closest to the tang, it wouldn't catch the wood well as I slide the knife forward into the material, but if I move up the blade just a bit it cuts like butter.

It is maybe an 1/8th of an inch long? Seems like it would be easy enough to grind it down the rest of the way to get it to match the bevel, but I have no grinder or workshop to use. Mostly I think I just need to "thin" the area behind the edge to match the bevel of the rest of the blade.

Is that what the back bevel setting will do for me? For example, if I bought the diamond rods and worked that one spot with a back bevel until it matched the rest of the bevel would that work?

Sorry for the poor description. I have tried to get photos that show what I mean, but i need a much nicer camera to macro and some proper light to show this issue.

[WalzAaronFFG]

Things like what the OP is talking about used to bother me no end when I was just getting into spydies. When I really started to use my knives, I found that these cosmetic blems don't really matter. I now tend to ignore things that don't affect perfomance. I don't usually cut with the last half inch on the heel of the blade anyway.

This isn't cosmetic, a portion of the blade doesn't cut things because it wasn't ground down all the way like the rest of the bevel or "relief cut" for the edge. When doing something like whittling wood, the knife cuts great until it gets to that spot, then gets stuck, or requires a great deal more force.

Can't explain it any better than that with my poor sharpening lingo.

This isn't my Lum Tanto that stays in the box, this is my Delica 4 that I'm not afraid to thrash on. Just want to make it sharp, not pretty

[WalzAaronFFG]

I was going to suggest something similar. Separately sharpen the "spot" in question but overlapping enough to keep it smoothly transitioning into the rest of the edge. Then over time and repeated sharpenings you can gradually completely even it up, thereby avoiding wasting a bunch of steel just for cosmetic purposes.

That is what I'm going to try. Once I get my diamond hones I will start with those, then gradually move down and try to work the bad spot into the rest of the bevel.

Thanks everyone, sorry for the multiple posts. Should have done a multi-quote. Everyone is so helpful around here!

[chuck_roxas45]

This isn't cosmetic, a portion of the blade doesn't cut things because it wasn't ground down all the way like the rest of the bevel or "relief cut" for the edge.

Well, the last half inch near the heel is cosmetic for me because you can move a half inch up the blade and problem solved. Besides that, I find that if I cut wood in that area, the tang tends to get in the way.

[WalzAaronFFG]

Well, the last half inch near the heel is cosmetic for me because you can move a half inch up the blade and problem solved. Besides that, I find that if I cut wood in that area, the tang tends to get in the way.

I start near the tang (not next to it, but close) and cut away and out. That is how I was taught, but I wasn't trained by a professional woodcarver or anything. That's just how I was showed how to use a knife for shaving wood.

On a blade that is under 3" every 1/2" counts. I'm not going to just ignore it, I want to fix it. I also want to become a better sharpener. That is the purpose of my post. Not knocking Spyderco QC or F&F or anything.

I don't mean to sound defensive or anything, but sometimes I feel like any time someone posts a question in regards to "how do I fix this?" someone always comments telling them that it isn't a problem and to just ignore it.

In many cases that is a totally acceptable answer from someone saying "The lockbar is .00000001 cm closer to the right liner than the left", but I'm just looking for sharpmaker tips to fix a fat and rounded portion of the bevel so my knife cuts better.

I appreciate your response, but I think i'm going to go with some of the other advice offered and buy the diamond hones/UF stones for the sharpmaker (and a strop). I can't afford an Edge Pro Apex and i'm sure that having more sharpening supplies will be useful for more than this single task.

Thanks,

Aaron

[chuck_roxas45]

I don't mean to sound defensive or anything, but sometimes I feel like any time someone posts a question in regards to "how do I fix this?" someone always comments telling them that it isn't a problem and to just ignore it.

Because it's not really a problem unless you're OCD about it and most people really do ignore and don't sweat the little things.

The best thing I can do now is wish you good luck in your quest.

[mongatu]

One thing I might suggest is a way to try to turn this into an advantage. Sometimes I will deliberately differentially sharpen the part of the blade next to the tang so that it has a wider more "axe-like" angle and is thus stronger than the thinner parts of the edge. Then I can use that part of the edge for tougher cutting jobs that might cause damage to the thinner parts of the edge. I would probably do something like that in this situation, but that still might involve taking it down quite a bit depending how thick it is now. But I would probably leave it a bit thicker with a more "axe" like bevel right near the tang area. It would still be very sharp but it would have more metal supporting the edge and thus be stronger than the rest of the edge which can be useful in some situations. Just something to consider.

[WalzAaronFFG]

One thing I might suggest is a way to try to turn this into an advantage. Sometimes I will deliberately differentially sharpen the part of the blade next to the tang so that it has a wider more "axe-like" angle and is thus stronger than the thinner parts of the edge. Then I can use that part of the edge for tougher cutting jobs that might cause damage to the thinner parts of the edge. I would probably do something like that in this situation, but that still might involve taking it down quite a bit depending how thick it is now. But I would probably leave it a bit thicker with a more "axe" like bevel right near the tang area. It would still be very sharp but it would have more metal supporting the edge and thus be stronger than the rest of the edge which can be useful in some situations. Just something to consider.

I suppose that does have its advantages. Good suggestion.

Thanks,

Aaron

[jackknifeh]

No it is kind of the opposite. The majority of the edge has a nice clean bevel, but as it gets closer to the tang of the blade the bevel gets "fatter" and makes the area directly behind the edge too thick to do any fine cutting tasks. For example, if I was whittling with the small portion of the blade that is closest to the tang, it wouldn't catch the wood well as I slide the knife forward into the material, but if I move up the blade just a bit it cuts like butter.

It is maybe an 1/8th of an inch long? Seems like it would be easy enough to grind it down the rest of the way to get it to match the bevel, but I have no grinder or workshop to use. Mostly I think I just need to "thin" the area behind the edge to match the bevel of the rest of the blade.

Is that what the back bevel setting will do for me? For example, if I bought the diamond rods and worked that one spot with a back bevel until it matched the rest of the bevel would that work?

Sorry for the poor description. I have tried to get photos that show what I mean, but i need a much nicer camera to macro and some proper light to show this issue.

Opposite of what I pictured? Good news. It sounds like you know what to do, just don't have the tools to do it quickly. The diamond stones should take care of the issue as quick as anything. I'd suggest not using any grinding power tools. I've used a Dremel on edges just to make things faster but the results are not as good as taking your time with the correct tools (or adequate skill).

Jack