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Thread: 30 , 40 degree edge

  1. #1
    Spyderco Forum Registered User marknett's Avatar
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    30 , 40 degree edge

    I'm new here so please bear with me. When you guys are talking about profiling edges tell me if I'm understanding this right . 30 degrees on the bevel then 40 degrees at the cutting edge . Now if thats right that breaks down to 15 degrees on each side on the bevel and 20 degrees on each side on the cutting edge . per my lanski system .. This can be a little confusing to me , so please tell me if I'm understanding this wrong
    "When Life feeds you Lemons , Pucker up and Quit Whining"

    Mark
    "Black" Delica 4 vg-10 (SG)
    "S.S." Byrd Meadowlark 8Cr13MoV (SG)
    "S.S." Grasshopper CR13 (FFG)
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    Spyderco Forum Registered User
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    100% correct!

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User dj moonbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaust View Post
    100% correct!
    But only 50% per side.
    "If you can't annoy somebody, there's little point in writing." Kingsley Amis

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User Evil D's Avatar
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    Yes...you're right on the money. After sharpening it a few times, maybe 10 times or something, you need to go back and lower the bevel back down to 30 or eventually you'll end up with just a 40 primary bevel.

    I'm one of the resident Lansky lovers...you can search just about any of my posts for some info on them, also this thread has some great chat about how to set up the clamp http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showt...ghlight=Lansky

    I generally stick with the 30/40 rule unless i have a knife that's going to be lighter duty, like food prep. I started doing my ZDP knives down to 25-30 inclusive and decided that for what i do at work, it was just too thin of an edge so i run my bevel super low, down to about 20-25 and then go a very very small 40 primary bevel. This makes the blade thin behind the edge but not so delicate at the cutting edge.

    SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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    Spyderco Forum Registered User Nonprophet's Avatar
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    It's right. I was new a short time ago too and I find myself using all sorts of different angles but I normally go with 2 or 3 degrees between pirmary and micro bevel. For hunting/camping/harder use knives I do 20 per side and 22 micro. For skinning/Self Defense/sharp for the sake of sharp type blades I use 15 & 17. On my kitchen knives I had to use 12 per side as the edge was already pretty low but it cuts like a dream with no micro bevel (my wife wouldn't let me make it any sharper for fear she'd lose a finger)
    ‎"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."Robert Heinlein

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User jackknifeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil D View Post
    Yes...you're right on the money. After sharpening it a few times, maybe 10 times or something, you need to go back and lower the bevel back down to 30 or eventually you'll end up with just a 40 primary bevel.

    I'm one of the resident Lansky lovers...you can search just about any of my posts for some info on them, also this thread has some great chat about how to set up the clamp http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showt...ghlight=Lansky

    I generally stick with the 30/40 rule unless i have a knife that's going to be lighter duty, like food prep. I started doing my ZDP knives down to 25-30 inclusive and decided that for what i do at work, it was just too thin of an edge so i run my bevel super low, down to about 20-25 and then go a very very small 40 primary bevel. This makes the blade thin behind the edge but not so delicate at the cutting edge.
    I agree with Evil in that 30 deg. back bevel and a 40 deg. edge bevel is the best average for most knives, especially pocket knives. For about a year now I've sharpened my knives to various degrees and now believe that 30/40 is a good standard for most types of steel. ZDP-189 will get a razor edge at low angles but in my experience it chips right at the edge easily. You won't see the chips because they are so small but if you run your fingernail down the edge you can feel them. I now have all ZDP knives I have with a 40 degree edge bevel. The back bevel may be lower than 30 if I want more of a "thin behind the edge slicing ability". Chipping is dramitically reduced. "Thin behind the edge" also involves blade thickness but that's another subject.

    Funny thing is that what I've come to believe with my limited experimentation and experience is just what the VERY experience people have been saying for years. I'm sure they will be relieved to know that they are right based on my VERY limited experience. There is a saying that comes to mind: Keep it simple stupid. A philosiphy that has stood the test of time. I'll stop rambling.

    Jack
    PS edit: One of the very experienced sources that say 30/40 is the best average is Spyderco. They even back it up by making their sharpmaker angle settings like that.
    Last edited by jackknifeh; 12-03-2010 at 05:05 AM.

    My EDC for a while. Stretch with carbon fiber handle, Chaparral 2, Dragonfly 2 with kirinite MOP handle, Manbug with bolster/red bone handle. Super blue/420J1 blades on all three (except Chaparral).

  7. #7
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Evil D's Avatar
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    I was really tempted because ZDP will hold the edge a lot longer than most knifes...and if you're the type who just carries a knife and doesn't really put it through a lot of work use then a low angle on a ZDP or equivalent knife is just fine, but i cut through so much cardboard and other various materials like nylon and plastic that it just isn't a tough enough edge. I found that i ended up sharpening more too because i was constantly honing out chips and flat spots.

    SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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  8. #8
    Spyderco Forum Registered User marknett's Avatar
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    thats what I'm gonna do on this 10 dollar special I'm carring while i am waiting for my delica . besides its good practice . 30,40 it is
    "When Life feeds you Lemons , Pucker up and Quit Whining"

    Mark
    "Black" Delica 4 vg-10 (SG)
    "S.S." Byrd Meadowlark 8Cr13MoV (SG)
    "S.S." Grasshopper CR13 (FFG)
    "Blue" Stretch 2 ZDP-189 (FFG)

  9. #9
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Ankerson's Avatar
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    40 Degrees inclusive is the best all around for general knife use.

    30 Degrees inclusive can be used on the better steels, but that depends on the use of the knife. If one is doing a lot of hard cutting then 40 would be better most of the time.

    You can split it and do 36 degrees inclusive that will give you enough steel behind the edge to support it while slicing a little better than 40 Inclusive.

    Remember the less the angle the less edge retention the edge will have so it's all a trade off.

    Polished edges will last longer than ones that aren't polished because they are stronger.

    I usually go with 30 inclusive on most blades, with a polished edge it gives me the best balance.

  10. #10
    Spyderco Forum Registered User dj moonbat's Avatar
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    If a knife is made from good steel, and/or is typically used with little pressure (e.g. a paring knife), I go with 20/30. Otherwise, 30/40 works great.
    "If you can't annoy somebody, there's little point in writing." Kingsley Amis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil D View Post
    I was really tempted because ZDP will hold the edge a lot longer than most knifes...and if you're the type who just carries a knife and doesn't really put it through a lot of work use then a low angle on a ZDP or equivalent knife is just fine, but i cut through so much cardboard and other various materials like nylon and plastic that it just isn't a tough enough edge. I found that i ended up sharpening more too because i was constantly honing out chips and flat spots.
    i agree, i tried sharpening my stretch at less than 15 per side and while great for showing off at shaving arm hairs it wasnt good at holding it because of small chips in the edge. 30/40 now and it rocks ... doing the same on all my folders.

    like whats been said, once you get the 30 deg back bevel established sharpening at 40 deg is a breeze and to me can seem just as sharp as a 30 deg edge and stays sharp longer and easier to touch up. the only exception i might make is with my gayle bradley which has almost a zero edge to the deep hollow grind. i dont think theres enough there to make a 40/30 combo and ill just do a 30 on it when / if it ever needs anything more than a few passes on a strop.
    my knives:
    kershaw Leek Buck 119 Cold Steel Recon tanto
    Cold Steel Ti Lite VI ,
    Spyderco: Tenacious ,Persistence, Endura 4 blue Stretch zdp blue, Manix 2 ,Native s30v . Sage2 titanium, Gayle Bradly cpm m4, Muleteam mt 10, woodcraft mule s30v. Orange Delica 4
    Bark River PSK 154cm, Gunny, Bravo 2, Canadian Special

  12. #12
    Spyderco Forum Registered User marknett's Avatar
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    well I tried to do the 30 ,40 (or the lanski ) equivalant . The problem is I've got a 10 dollar 440 stainless p.o.c. knife . I don't think the blade can support the finer edges with hope of retention . So I went with the 25 degree slot all the way through the sharpening and got it sharp enough to push-cut paper and shave arm hair without pulling . Will the edge hold up .. Highly doubtful
    but it was still fun sharpening
    "When Life feeds you Lemons , Pucker up and Quit Whining"

    Mark
    "Black" Delica 4 vg-10 (SG)
    "S.S." Byrd Meadowlark 8Cr13MoV (SG)
    "S.S." Grasshopper CR13 (FFG)
    "Blue" Stretch 2 ZDP-189 (FFG)

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    well there is a limit to what can support a 30/40 edge. the thinner the blade the less room you have. but then again having the blade that thin near the edge your working with something like a back bevel anyway just because of the blades thinness . so a thin blade at 25 deg doesnt sound too bad, cheap one or not. just have to sharpen it more often.
    my knives:
    kershaw Leek Buck 119 Cold Steel Recon tanto
    Cold Steel Ti Lite VI ,
    Spyderco: Tenacious ,Persistence, Endura 4 blue Stretch zdp blue, Manix 2 ,Native s30v . Sage2 titanium, Gayle Bradly cpm m4, Muleteam mt 10, woodcraft mule s30v. Orange Delica 4
    Bark River PSK 154cm, Gunny, Bravo 2, Canadian Special

  14. #14
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Evil D's Avatar
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    Shameless pic whoring



    That's the sweet spot for ZDP IMO...super low back bevel, 40 inclusive micro bevel. Embrace it, love it, rejoice

    SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
    ~David

    Official plea to Sal: Can we PLEASE get a DLC Yojimbo 2? PLEASE!!?

  15. #15
    Spyderco Forum Registered User unit's Avatar
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    Back to square one!

    For a new guy grasping the concepts...

    You have it correct. 30 with a 40 inclusive edge bevel will perform VERY similarly when your plain edge Spyderco was new.

    Keep it simple
    Thanks,
    Ken (my real name)

    ...learning something new all the time.

  16. #16
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Nonprophet's Avatar
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    Am I maybe making too small a micro bevel by going 30/34 or 40/44? Maybe I need a slightly steeper micro?
    ‎"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."Robert Heinlein

  17. #17
    Spyderco Forum Registered User chuck_roxas45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nonprophet View Post
    Am I maybe making too small a micro bevel by going 30/34 or 40/44? Maybe I need a slightly steeper micro?
    The suitability of a bevel angle of 30/34 will depend mostly on the steel and your uses. For example, ZDP can take a bevel angle of 30 degrees for most EDC tasks. You would not need to have a micro bevel of 34 degrees for ZDP for common EDC task. If you use your ZDP a bit heavier than most, then a 40 degree micro bevel might be more suitable.

    For the 40/44 angle, most steels that spyderco uses are quite satisfactory at 40 degrees and a microbevel of 44 degrees might be redundant and might lessen cutting performance unless of course, you need a more durable edge at the expense of a little more cutting power.

    What I'm really trying to say is that, your bevel angles are personal and with a little experimentation or trial and error on your part, you will find what suits you and your uses best.
    I always heard that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but then you catch even more flies with poop



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  18. #18
    Spyderco Forum Registered User jackknifeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nonprophet View Post
    Am I maybe making too small a micro bevel by going 30/34 or 40/44? Maybe I need a slightly steeper micro?
    Spyderco's recommendation is a 30 degree back bevel and a 40 degree edge bevel. I've used that recommendation lately after several months of experimenting with lower angles. When you look at my knifes with those angles you can easily see both bevels, especially after I have created both bevels and then re-sharpened a knife at the 40 degree angle. The 40 degree bevel gets a tiny bit bigger with each sharpening. What I'm getting at is the 40 degree angle is not a micro bevel. A micro bevel usually means it is so small that it's hard to see without close examination. So, when you say 30/34 are you talking about a back bevel of 30 and an edge bevel of 34 (instead of 40)? If you mean the edge bevel is 30 then a very small micro bevel of 34 I think that would work well. Now the 40/44 setting, if you mean an edge bevel of 40 and a very small micro bevel of 44 that should work also but I wouldn't go any higher than that.

    Whatever your edge bevel is, a micro bevel of 4 degrees higher should always be fine.

    Using Spyderco's recommendation, here is what I think the angles should be if you want to use a micro bevel:

    Back bevel = 30 degrees inclusive
    Edge bevel = 40 degrees inclusive
    Micro bevel = 44 degrees inclusive (this bevel should be almost invisible unless you look at the edge with a magnifying glass or look for the reflection of light off each bevel)

    Did that make any sense at all?

    Jack

    My EDC for a while. Stretch with carbon fiber handle, Chaparral 2, Dragonfly 2 with kirinite MOP handle, Manbug with bolster/red bone handle. Super blue/420J1 blades on all three (except Chaparral).

  19. #19
    Spyderco Forum Registered User chuck_roxas45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackknifeh View Post
    Spyderco's recommendation is a 30 degree back bevel and a 40 degree edge bevel. I've used that recommendation lately after several months of experimenting with lower angles. When you look at my knifes with those angles you can easily see both bevels, especially after I have created both bevels and then re-sharpened a knife at the 40 degree angle. The 40 degree bevel gets a tiny bit bigger with each sharpening. What I'm getting at is the 40 degree angle is not a micro bevel. A micro bevel usually means it is so small that it's hard to see without close examination. So, when you say 30/34 are you talking about a back bevel of 30 and an edge bevel of 34 (instead of 40)? If you mean the edge bevel is 30 then a very small micro bevel of 34 I think that would work well. Now the 40/44 setting, if you mean an edge bevel of 40 and a very small micro bevel of 44 that should work also but I wouldn't go any higher than that.

    Whatever your edge bevel is, a micro bevel of 4 degrees higher should always be fine.

    Using Spyderco's recommendation, here is what I think the angles should be if you want to use a micro bevel:

    Back bevel = 30 degrees inclusive
    Edge bevel = 40 degrees inclusive
    Micro bevel = 44 degrees inclusive (this bevel should be almost invisible unless you look at the edge with a magnifying glass or look for the reflection of light off each bevel)

    Did that make any sense at all?

    Jack
    I'm just curious Jack, isn't the purpose of a micro bevel to make an edge more durable? If so, will a 4 degree higher microbevel make that much more difference with edge durability than just taking the back bevel to the edge?
    I always heard that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but then you catch even more flies with poop



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  20. #20
    Spyderco Forum Registered User jackknifeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck_roxas45 View Post
    I'm just curious Jack, isn't the purpose of a micro bevel to make an edge more durable? If so, will a 4 degree higher microbevel make that much more difference with edge durability than just taking the back bevel to the edge?
    I believe that is the purpose. Personally, it wouldn't make much difference to me and what I use a knife for most of the time. The only exception is with ZDP-189. With lower angles I had a problem with TINY chips in the edge. So small they were not noticable unless you ran your fingernail down the edge or something like that. I am now using the 30/40 angles on those blades. I haven't noticed any chipping since I put those angles on the blades but if I do then I'll add a micro bevel of 43 or 44 degrees and see how that works.

    Jack

    My EDC for a while. Stretch with carbon fiber handle, Chaparral 2, Dragonfly 2 with kirinite MOP handle, Manbug with bolster/red bone handle. Super blue/420J1 blades on all three (except Chaparral).

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