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Thread: Delica for defense

  1. #41
    Spyderco Forum Registered User JNewell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecSpyral View Post
    carefully placed tape works as well. This is big in the Bali-Song community as well....even though I don't recommend it. In flipping, the cuts make you more aware.
    There's a whole range of opinions about what types of trainers are good for what parts of training. Suffice it to say that it is possible to do a lot of damage even with a dedicated trainer - some things are better done with foam. (None of that is intended to be disagreeing with you, btw.)

  2. #42
    Spyderco Forum Registered User SecSpyral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNewell View Post
    There's a whole range of opinions about what types of trainers are good for what parts of training. Suffice it to say that it is possible to do a lot of damage even with a dedicated trainer - some things are better done with foam. (None of that is intended to be disagreeing with you, btw.)
    foam?

    - Scott C.
    "Enduras and Delicas are like potato chips--you can't have just one.
    However, unlike potato chips, they're GOOD for you!"
    - Mike J.

  3. #43
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Blerv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNewell View Post
    There is always this option - not quite the same but better than nothing (see below)?



    Balance and weight will not be quite the same and you may want to paint the handles blue or red, but it's better than nothing.

    The only problem is as Mike has said in other threads taking a blade to a grinder for training purposes requires quite a bit of material removal. Even a "dull" knife will cut and penetrate at any speed. I say this from word-of-mouth as I don't currently train.

    He mentioned grinding and welding a split piece of copper tube then putting a rounded bead on the tip to make an effective grass roots trainer (in another thread).

    Personally I'd be tempted to just grab a D4/E4 for a suitable replacement to a Para/Mili trainer. Put it in tip-up carry and work the drills. Blade lengths and basic mechanics should be similar.


    EDIT: JNewell - I looked at some of your points and agree completely. I left this up for sake of reference to Mike's "homebrew" trainer.
    Last edited by Blerv; 04-13-2010 at 11:46 AM.
    Blake

  4. #44
    Spyderco Forum Registered User SolidState's Avatar
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    When there is no trainer available, like with the dragonfly, I grind the blade to a rounded flat approximately 1mm wide. Less than that will still split skin pretty easily. The tip tends to have to be a circle of approximately 4 or 5mm in diameter for them to be useful without stabbing. People use archery arm guards to prevent this even with trainers.

    Even then, they will surprise you. I have been stabbed by a trainer. It is more of an impact splitting than a 'stab' proper but it still is less than ideal. Imagine getting stuck with a screwdriver. Stuff happens when you train. Even a plastic butter knife from KFC can deal a hefty slash against flesh if the cutting form is good.
    "Nothing is so fatal to the progress of the human mind as to suppose that our views of science are ultimate; that there are no mysteries in nature; that our triumphs are complete, and that there are no new worlds to conquer."
    Sir Humphry Davy

  5. #45
    Spyderco Forum Registered User AH2525's Avatar
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    I remember reading an article by/about Fred Perrin once where he stated that he often carried an unsharpened drone/trainer for defense. He made the point that it would be difficult to portray himself as having acted in self-defense when his attacker had multiple cuts/stab wounds.

    "Fred often uses a training knife (a drone with a dull blade) to fight because it can still do extensive damage without cutting someone open. Fred says, "how can you tell the judge you were only defending yourself, when the guy has more than 40 deep cuts on his body?"

    link: http://www.realfighting.com/content.php?id=85

    An interesting perspective.

  6. #46
    Spyderco Forum Registered User JNewell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH2525 View Post
    I remember reading an article by/about Fred Perrin once where he stated that he often carried an unsharpened drone/trainer for defense. He made the point that it would be difficult to portray himself as having acted in self-defense when his attacker had multiple cuts/stab wounds.

    "Fred often uses a training knife (a drone with a dull blade) to fight because it can still do extensive damage without cutting someone open. Fred says, "how can you tell the judge you were only defending yourself, when the guy has more than 40 deep cuts on his body?"

    link: http://www.realfighting.com/content.php?id=85

    An interesting perspective.
    Wow. That's a whole different take on one of the points I was making about what you can expect from "dedicated trainers." IMO/YMMV, they're good for practicing mechanical reps solo, but not a good idea for use around another person. YMMV...

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecSpyral View Post
    That is amazing. I would have never thought that a Delica would do that much damage! So does this mean that a Delica might be a better MBC option over an Endura? In the video for the new D4/E4 colors you said you carry an Endura and sometimes 2 Delica's. Is this just personal preference or is there a better option. Fortunately I live in an area where I can carry up to 4 inches of steel, so I was going to opt for an Endura but I would rather carry a Delica because of its size and ease of carry if it is as capable in defensive techniques.
    If you can legally carry the Endura and it's a comfortable fit for you, it's probably a better choice. Due to their slightly larger size, Enduras are easier to draw and open. They will also cut deeper than Delicas. With all that said, if the Delica is a better fit and is more convenient for you, it will serve you just fine.

    I just have to say that this thread is so great! So much information packed into the text. Thanks to threads like these, I just bought 6 new Spyders.
    Thank you!

    Stay safe,

    Mike
    Michael Janich
    Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
    Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts

  8. #48
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    The lack of a trainer IS a disadvantage. The Delica trainer comes pretty close, so it's a good option; however, nothing beats a purpose-designed trainer.

    I've used all types of training knives made from all types of materials. Back in the old days, we used the oak tantos from the martial arts stores (I think sparring with hammers would have been safer). In the 90's Edge Molding Company made molded resin trainers that replicated open folders, but with built-up, thicker edges. Erik Remmen got Spyderco to grind down first generation Delicas into "drones" and the concept of mechanically functional, purposely dulled trainers took off.

    The problem with grinding down any live blade is that achieving a material thickness that is safe for contact with a training partner is very difficult. On soft tissue, it's not bad, but when even a smooth, poished, but narrow edge hits skin over bone, cuts usually occur. I've seen this happen several times (mostly fingers and metacarpals) and it sucks.

    Although taping the edge of a balisong is OK when practicing flipping, never, EVER think that you can create a safe contact trainer by taping the edge of a live blade!!! That's a recipe for disaster.

    In general, the closer you can get to your actual carry knife while stil maintaininga broad, safe, blunt edge, the better off you'll be. With that said, I also believe in foam trainers for practicing specific skills. I make mine out of the closed-cell foam packing material (like computer monitors are packed in) covered with duct tape. For practicing full-speed targeting of an attacking limb with a partner (like sparring, but with clearly identified attackers and defenders), they work great. For everything else, give me an Endura or Delica trainer.

    Stay safe,

    Mike
    Michael Janich
    Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
    Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts

  9. #49
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Reeper22's Avatar
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    Mr. Michael Janich, thank you very much for commenting on my Military/Paramilitary question. I asked because I own both and was wondering your opinion on them as SD choices. I assumed that they were very good ones given the over-sized handles, aggressive blades, etc . You answer was very informative and helpful. Thanks again.
    Last edited by Reeper22; 04-13-2010 at 07:10 PM.
    Keep you blades sharp and your wits sharper

  10. #50
    Spyderco Forum Registered User mark greenman's Avatar
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    Great thread, thanks for all the info Mike.

    BTW, what kind of Delica were you using in the spike demo, the D4 or one of the newer FFG models?

  11. #51
    Spyderco Forum Registered User chuck_roxas45's Avatar
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    thanks for all the great information Mr. Janich, I carry a military dedicated to SD and I also carry an endura for utility. I'm happy to know both can serve me well in SD.

  12. #52
    Spyderco Forum Registered User SecSpyral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozh2002 View Post
    I really hate this kind of threads! Because they may lead some kids to big troubles.

    There is a difference between offense and defense. Even little tiny sharp object - like sharpened on the brick wall coin cane be deadly weapon in the hand of criminals if used by surprise on someone who do not expect attack and do not resist. But this is offense.

    In defense situation your opponent usually aware and ready to resist. It is possible to do deep cut with Delica but no single street fighter will allow this to you. And most likely you will not face in situation where you have to use weapon to defend yourself someone who never fight before. So in this case you need something which will do job even when you opponent actively resist. More then this - knowing that you may cut him he will try to put you down for good. It will not be fair fist fight (if any exists now days).

    So please, do not full yourself with tiny little blade on plastic handle.

    Delica is excellent cutting tool, but I will not bet my life on it.

    Thanks, Vassili.
    Well, this thread was too good to be true.

    - Scott C.
    "Enduras and Delicas are like potato chips--you can't have just one.
    However, unlike potato chips, they're GOOD for you!"
    - Mike J.

  13. #53
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Halfneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozh2002 View Post
    I really hate this kind of threads! Because they may lead some kids to big troubles.

    There is a difference between offense and defense. Even little tiny sharp object - like sharpened on the brick wall coin cane be deadly weapon in the hand of criminals if used by surprise on someone who do not expect attack and do not resist. But this is offense.

    In defense situation your opponent usually aware and ready to resist. It is possible to do deep cut with Delica but no single street fighter will allow this to you. And most likely you will not face in situation where you have to use weapon to defend yourself someone who never fight before. So in this case you need something which will do job even when you opponent actively resist. More then this - knowing that you may cut him he will try to put you down for good. It will not be fair fist fight (if any exists now days).

    So please, do not full yourself with tiny little blade on plastic handle.

    Delica is excellent cutting tool, but I will not bet my life on it.

    Thanks, Vassili.
    Is the Delica ideal? Nope, I'd rather avoid an issue or have one of my handguns instead.

    Will the Delica work in a self-defense scenario? Yes. Not only has Mr. Janich pointed out it is feasible, but way back when I was into this stuff I remember Erik Remmen teaching his Clip-it class using Delicas & Enduras. I also had Mr. Keating advocate that the Delica would work in self-defense.

    I'll take the advice an recommendation of people who train in this stuff over your speculations & opinions sorry.
    "A Delica is still a better weapon than a keyboard and a sour attitude..." Michael Janich

  14. #54
    Spyderco Forum Registered User THG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halfneck View Post
    Is the Delica ideal? Nope, I'd rather avoid an issue or have one of my handguns instead.

    Will the Delica work in a self-defense scenario? Yes. Not only has Mr. Janich pointed out it is feasible, but way back when I was into this stuff I remember Erik Remmen teaching his Clip-it class using Delicas & Enduras. I also had Mr. Keating advocate that the Delica would work in self-defense.

    I'll take the advice an recommendation of people who train in this stuff over your speculations & opinions sorry.
    I don't know... He makes a somewhat valid point. I respect Mr. Janich very much and enjoy watching his videos and informationals on Youtube, but has Mr. Janich himself been attacked by a thug by surprise in such a manner Vassili described? (Of course if the answer is yes, then I take back my skepticism.)

    I kinda see speculation on both sides.
    Im not good at sharpening, even with a sharpmaker. How get your blade good can your blade with an edge pro system? - Bladeforums user

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  15. #55
    Spyderco Forum Registered User SecSpyral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THG View Post
    I don't know... He makes a somewhat valid point. I respect Mr. Janich very much and enjoy watching his videos and informationals on Youtube, but has Mr. Janich himself been attacked by a thug by surprise in such a manner Vassili described? (Of course if the answer is yes, then I take back my skepticism.)

    I kinda see speculation on both sides.
    I don't think he needs to be attacked by a thug to be knowledgeable about the art of self defense. The whole reason to practice the art is to not be attacked and never have to use it...but to have the knowledge to prevent injury and subdue attackers.

    - Scott C.
    "Enduras and Delicas are like potato chips--you can't have just one.
    However, unlike potato chips, they're GOOD for you!"
    - Mike J.

  16. #56
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Reeper22's Avatar
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    Michael Janich is a world renowned expert on self defense using edged weapons among others. I'm going to take his advice over an anonymous forum poster. Of course having a knife in a self defense scenario doesn't guarantee that you come out of the encounter on top but it helps to level the playing field. Plenty of people have gone into "fair fist fights" in a self defense situation and been beaten to death.

    P.S. I fail to see what the Delica's "tiny" blade length and plastic handle matters. Would it help you defend yourself better with a carbon fiber, titanium, or G10 handle?
    Keep you blades sharp and your wits sharper

  17. #57
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    nozh2002: I donīt doubt about MJīs skills and as others wrote - studying martial arts is not about making troubles but not get into troubles! And if you get into them - then be the one who will "survive" (but itīs extreme). You know, my teacher of aiki-jutsu told us "Itīs better to be judged for one than worn by six" - offcourse my interpretation and translation is worst ever but that means, that itīs better to be judged and staying alive than being worn by six guys, in coffin I know, rough but thatīs world, if you will meet up with druged drug addicted thug (and in this case you are deep in ****) itīs better to know how to avoid conflict or how to defend yourself (one slash punch and run away!!! NO HERO GAME MAN!!!) - actually where I live in evening and night (Prague) itīs quite dangerous and Iīm glad, that I have some basics of SD.

    Edit: And yes, Iīve been in two serious fights - first one I was the one who ended in hospital with two ribs broken, head f...ed up and my shoulder muscle kicked to **** - gang of skinhead/neonacists who wanted to have fun and there was no way how to get far away from them and second when I was defending my exGF - then I was one winning using pen instead of kubotan - when you have motivation and something bad after you (like my experience with noted guys) youīll be thinking in another way bro - no offense meant, just my two cents.

    Have a nice day gentlemans. Pavel
    Last edited by PaloArt; 04-14-2010 at 02:45 AM.

  18. #58
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Reeper22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p.jester84 View Post
    nozh2002: I donīt doubt about MJīs skills and as others wrote - studying martial arts is not about making troubles but not get into troubles! And if you get into them - then be the one who will "survive" (but itīs extreme). You know, my teacher of aiki-jutsu told us "Itīs better to be judged for one than worn by six" - offcourse my interpretation and translation is worst ever but that means, that itīs better to be judged and staying alive than being worn by six guys, in coffin I know, rough but thatīs world, if you will meet up with druged drug addicted thug (and in this case you are deep in ****) itīs better to know how to avoid conflict or how to defend yourself (one slash punch and run away!!! NO HERO GAME MAN!!!) - actually where I live in evening and night (Prague) itīs quite dangerous and Iīm glad, that I have some basics of SD.

    Edit: And yes, Iīve been in two serious fights - first one I was the one who ended in hospital with two ribs broken, head f...ed up and my shoulder muscle kicked to **** - gang of skinhead/neonacists who wanted to have fun and there was no way how to get far away from them and second when I was defending my exGF - then I was one winning using pen instead of kubotan - when you have motivation and something bad after you (like my experience with noted guys) youīll be thinking in another way bro - no offense meant, just my two cents.

    Have a nice day gentlemans. Pavel
    My friend had a knife pulled on him in Wenceslas Square when he questioned the quality of marijuana offered by some street thug.

    I also got into a brawl, not through fault of my own, with some Ukrainians in Old Town Square. Prague can be a dangerous place. Just thought I'd share some stories with my fellow Slavs.
    Last edited by Reeper22; 04-14-2010 at 03:32 AM.
    Keep you blades sharp and your wits sharper

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozh2002 View Post
    What do I know? I grown up in peaceful and safe Moscow during USSR fall...

    Thanks, Vassili.
    I hope you didnīt meant my opinion somehow offensive - was not meant so. Iīm just 21 years old so I canīt compare times before and now. I accept, that you are older and that you have more experience. I feel sarcasm from your post anyway thatīs just my feeling .

    Anyway Mike has proved his skills with over 20 years of studying MA I think... and even from his posts, books, videos you can see, that he is trained expert. My teacher was at IWA and met with him, he talked to him, wrote article about modern knife fighting and MJ was mentioned as one of the best knife fighting practicioners and I believe to my Teacher - because he is very good in what he is doing - but thatīs my opinion and opinion of our Soldiers, Police, URNA - something like swat but not so cool etc. - I know, this doesnīt say something about it. Hmm... would be cool to meet with Mike on some seminar focused on knife fighting and SD but US too far for me - and probably too expensive

    Thanks bro for your opinion

    Reeper22

    Man, Prague is beautiful in night, but dangerous too... hope youīve not been injured Iīm very often scared of behavior of some guys in town but which town does not have itīs darker side I found that is normal to meet some guys offering cocaine, heroine etc. on way from club but after some time you learn right kind of body language or something like that, that those guys will let you be - donīt know what exactly is that but it works fine sometimes after some time. Sorry, I donīt know how to describe it perfectly with my bad range of vocabulary, hope you know, what Iīm talking about

  20. #60
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Reeper22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p.jester84 View Post
    Reeper22

    Man, Prague is beautiful in night, but dangerous too... hope youīve not been injured Iīm very often scared of behavior of some guys in town but which town does not have itīs darker side I found that is normal to meet some guys offering cocaine, heroine etc. on way from club but after some time you learn right kind of body language or something like that, that those guys will let you be - donīt know what exactly is that but it works fine sometimes after some time. Sorry, I donīt know how to describe it perfectly with my bad range of vocabulary, hope you know, what Iīm talking about
    I didn't have too many issues in Prague. I studied there for 6 weeks and really enjoyed myself. Yes, there are people everywhere that are selling coke, heroin, etc. that will usually leave you alone if you ignore them however, my friends told the guy that it wasn't even marijuana he was selling and took offense and pulled the knife. Fortunately no one was hurt. During my little event though I did dislocate my middle knuckle in my right hand. Didn't hurt too much until I woke up the next day. I went to a Czech doctor a couple days later and he just yanked it out and rammed it back in without even telling me it was dislocated or what he was going to do to save me the anxiety and so I wouldn't flinch.

    Your English is very good. You ever go to the Darling? You know what I'm talking about.
    Keep you blades sharp and your wits sharper

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