Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 133

Thread: Delica for defense

  1. #21
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Reeper22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    204
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Snubnose View Post
    Ay Riot, Of course I'm not Michael so I'll let him answer for himself...but It has been my experience that the PE makes a better defensive tool, as the teeth on the serrated model tends to get caught up on clothing. Nothing wrong with a Delica for a SD option. I once saw x-rays of a guy who was stabbed in the head. You guessed it...he was stabbed with a PE Delica and FWIW it did to my amazement penetrate the skull....Doc
    Can you give more details about the encounter? Did the guy die? Was it a self defense type thing? Etc.
    Keep you blades sharp and your wits sharper

  2. #22
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Dr. Snubnose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    NewYork
    Posts
    8,130
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeper22 View Post
    Can you give more details about the encounter? Did the guy die? Was it a self defense type thing? Etc.
    Sorry Reeper, I don't remember the details in full, but the guy did live...I saw the x-rays while attending the Burlington Police Chiefs Academy in N.J. quite a number of years ago....Doc
    "Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"

    *Custom Avatar with the Help of Daywalker*

  3. #23
    Spyderco Forum Registered User c.joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    677
    Michael, that was an amazing video. It makes me really want to start close hand combat training. I've been doing some BJJ for some time, but what your video showed seems a lot more useful and realistic.

  4. #24
    Spyderco Forum Registered User JNewell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Land of the Bean and the Cod
    Posts
    4,722
    Here's my D3 that has been part of my 16/7/365 gear since around 1998. It doesn't look too bad, but it is never used for every day tasks - I keep a Vic Pioneer in by back pocket for those uses. Most of the rest of my 16/7 gear looks like someone secured it with some paracord and threw it out the window while driving down the highway.

    I've gone back and forth on PE and CE and have a matching PE. I'm comfortable with the CE for reasons not worth discussing here.


  5. #25
    Administrator
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Longmont, CO USA
    Posts
    1,221
    Quote Originally Posted by RIOT View Post
    Hello Mike Janich,

    If you had to choose SE or PE for self defense which one would you choose ?
    Dear Riot:

    This question comes up a lot. To determine an answer, I did a bunch of live-blade testing on pork men with various types of "clothing" over them. I was particularly interested in the performance of different edge types against very loose clothing--particularly the crotch-to-the-knees gangbanger-style pants.

    What I found was that serrations tended to "grab" very loose clothing and move it over the target, dissipating the force of the cut and greatly reducing the ability of the edge to penetrate the clothing. Properly sharpened plain edges--especially those with superior edge profile (not too much belly) and superior edge geometry cut much cleaner and with much greater effect on the underlying target.

    I recently did an interesting pork man demo for a TV show called Don't Be a Victim that will be airing on SPIKE starting in July. It's basically "inspired" by The Best Defense and I will be demonstrating a variety of personal-defense skills as part of the "Practical Tactical" (I didn't choose that name) segment. To demonstrate the cutting power of a small knife, I built a 20-pound pork man that was literally the size of a large man's thigh. We taped it to a grappling dummy (basically a heavy bag with arms and legs) to support it and put the target into context. I then whacked it with a ballistic cut from a Rock Salt, producing pretty devastating cut about 7 inches long, which did not go all the way to the dowel/"bone." Popping a Delica, did the same thing, producing a slightly longer cut that DID go all the way to the dowel/"bone." In fact, when it popped out the other side, it actually cut the other leg on the leather dummy (Oops. Glad it wasn't my dummy.). Why? Because with the shorter blade, the cut becomes more of a pressure cut, since it's easier to transfer energy from the hand to the blade. Longer blades are longer levers, so it's harder to apply constant pressure all the way to the point. They therefore rely more on ballistic energy to cut efficiently.

    I hope this helps.

    Stay safe,

    Mike
    Michael Janich
    Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
    Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts

  6. #26
    Spyderco Forum Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    2,914
    thanks for the summary Mike,

    in the youtube video posted in the begining of this thread, were you using a plain edge or a combo edge ? my eyes kept seeing an a combo edge but im not sure

  7. #27
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Dr. Snubnose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    NewYork
    Posts
    8,130
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Janich View Post
    Dear Riot:

    This question comes up a lot. To determine an answer, I did a bunch of live-blade testing on pork men with various types of "clothing" over them. I was particularly interested in the performance of different edge types against very loose clothing--particularly the crotch-to-the-knees gangbanger-style pants.

    What I found was that serrations tended to "grab" very loose clothing and move it over the target, dissipating the force of the cut and greatly reducing the ability of the edge to penetrate the clothing. Properly sharpened plain edges--especially those with superior edge profile (not too much belly) and superior edge geometry cut much cleaner and with much greater effect on the underlying target.

    I recently did an interesting pork man demo for a TV show called Don't Be a Victim that will be airing on SPIKE starting in July. It's basically "inspired" by The Best Defense and I will be demonstrating a variety of personal-defense skills as part of the "Practical Tactical" (I didn't choose that name) segment. To demonstrate the cutting power of a small knife, I built a 20-pound pork man that was literally the size of a large man's thigh. We taped it to a grappling dummy (basically a heavy bag with arms and legs) to support it and put the target into context. I then whacked it with a ballistic cut from a Rock Salt, producing pretty devastating cut about 7 inches long, which did not go all the way to the dowel/"bone." Popping a Delica, did the same thing, producing a slightly longer cut that DID go all the way to the dowel/"bone." In fact, when it popped out the other side, it actually cut the other leg on the leather dummy (Oops. Glad it wasn't my dummy.). Why? Because with the shorter blade, the cut becomes more of a pressure cut, since it's easier to transfer energy from the hand to the blade. Longer blades are longer levers, so it's harder to apply constant pressure all the way to the point. They therefore rely more on ballistic energy to cut efficiently.
    I hope this helps.

    Stay safe,

    Mike
    Ok That makes sense, but wouldn't you agree that the Rock Salt was more of a chopping type weapon, and with Largomano movements (Largehand/Long Distance) slashes the Rock Salt might prove to more effective?...Also: Because I or anyone else for that matter other than you and those at the filming of this demo haven't seen this yet I would like to ask you at what point along the blade of the Rock Salt did it make contact with the target, was It just the front leading edge, middle portion or the complete blade...Thanks....Doc
    Last edited by Dr. Snubnose; 04-13-2010 at 01:23 AM.
    "Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"

    *Custom Avatar with the Help of Daywalker*

  8. #28
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Reeper22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    204
    What about a Military or Paramilitary vs Delica?
    Keep you blades sharp and your wits sharper

  9. #29
    Spyderco Forum Registered User chuck_roxas45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Small City, Philippines
    Posts
    8,015
    I would be more comfortable with a military than a delica, but that's just me.

  10. #30
    Spyderco Forum Registered User JNewell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Land of the Bean and the Cod
    Posts
    4,722
    Thank you very much - the real world test information is very useful.

    BTW, I also thought your MBC video was very well done - please feel free to promote your videos where you think we'd benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Janich View Post
    Dear Riot:

    This question comes up a lot. To determine an answer, I did a bunch of live-blade testing on pork men with various types of "clothing" over them. I was particularly interested in the performance of different edge types against very loose clothing--particularly the crotch-to-the-knees gangbanger-style pants.

    What I found was that serrations tended to "grab" very loose clothing and move it over the target, dissipating the force of the cut and greatly reducing the ability of the edge to penetrate the clothing. Properly sharpened plain edges--especially those with superior edge profile (not too much belly) and superior edge geometry cut much cleaner and with much greater effect on the underlying target.

    I recently did an interesting pork man demo for a TV show called Don't Be a Victim that will be airing on SPIKE starting in July. It's basically "inspired" by The Best Defense and I will be demonstrating a variety of personal-defense skills as part of the "Practical Tactical" (I didn't choose that name) segment. To demonstrate the cutting power of a small knife, I built a 20-pound pork man that was literally the size of a large man's thigh. We taped it to a grappling dummy (basically a heavy bag with arms and legs) to support it and put the target into context. I then whacked it with a ballistic cut from a Rock Salt, producing pretty devastating cut about 7 inches long, which did not go all the way to the dowel/"bone." Popping a Delica, did the same thing, producing a slightly longer cut that DID go all the way to the dowel/"bone." In fact, when it popped out the other side, it actually cut the other leg on the leather dummy (Oops. Glad it wasn't my dummy.). Why? Because with the shorter blade, the cut becomes more of a pressure cut, since it's easier to transfer energy from the hand to the blade. Longer blades are longer levers, so it's harder to apply constant pressure all the way to the point. They therefore rely more on ballistic energy to cut efficiently.

    I hope this helps.

    Stay safe,

    Mike

  11. #31
    Spyderco Forum Registered User JNewell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Land of the Bean and the Cod
    Posts
    4,722
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeper22 View Post
    What about a Military or Paramilitary vs Delica?
    The OP's question was more "could I" rather than "should I" - no one was trying to discourage use of other knives, I think.

  12. #32
    Administrator
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Longmont, CO USA
    Posts
    1,221
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Snubnose View Post
    Ok That makes sense, but wouldn't you agree that the Rock Salt was more of a chopping type weapon, and with Largomano movements (Largehand/Long Distance) slashes the Rock Salt might prove to more effective?...Also: Because I or anyone else for that matter other than you and those at the filming of this demo haven't seen this yet I would like to ask you at what point along the blade of the Rock Salt did it make contact with the target, was It just the front leading edge, middle portion or the complete blade...Thanks....Doc
    Dear Doc:

    At largo range I would definitely prefer the Rock Salt over a smaller blade. If you can get away with it, the longest weapon you can wield effectively (as long as it's appropriate to the confines of your environment) is always the best bet.

    During the test, the Rock Salt's blade impacted about midway down the length of the edge. Because of the dropped handle, hitting with the heel of the edge wouldn't work because the blade would truly chop, biting deep and not following through.

    The point of the demo was to show that a big blade was not necessary to create the desired wound--a to-the-bone mobility kill to the quadriceps. For the SPIKE audience (dare I say aless "enlightened" crowd than that of our dedicated forum), it was designed to illustrate a point in a visually dramatic way. Since the Rock Salt has a longer edge than the Delica, it definitely has the potential to cut deeper. To do that, I would have used a pressure cut starting at the heel of the edge and backed the spine of the blade with my left hand. The key is using the full length of the edge during the cut. "Slashes" don't do that.

    I hope this helps.

    Stay safe,

    Mike
    Michael Janich
    Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
    Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts

  13. #33
    Spyderco Forum Registered User brj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Bucharest, Romania, Europe, Earth
    Posts
    448
    Quote Originally Posted by JNewell View Post
    The OP's question was more "could I" rather than "should I" - no one was trying to discourage use of other knives, I think.
    I believe Reeper is trying to find out from Mr. Janich if the Millie/Para series would be as good an option as Delica for SD
    I would be also interested in this as I find myself carrying a Millie/Para more often than not
    Regardless of our native language, we all speak "knife" - Sal

  14. #34
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Blerv's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    10,109

    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by brj View Post
    I believe Reeper is trying to find out from Mr. Janich if the Millie/Para series would be as good an option as Delica for SD
    I would be also interested in this as I find myself carrying a Millie/Para more often than not
    Not to speak for anyone but I would personally say yes to that.

    They have a more aggressive edge/tip geometry and a very secure grip (plus most are g10). The comp lock on the para is tops too.

    The Delica tests are awesome because it's more of a edc blade than a combat folder (by design). The mili/para/yojimbo/manix/chinook, etc are designed primarily for a defense role with a secondary purpose of edc.

    A pro race instructor can make you lose your lunch in a stock FWD sport compact. In a Vette the performance results only go up.
    Blake

    Listing of Blade-Length Laws by State/County (Not My Website)
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USKnife.pdf

  15. #35
    Administrator
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Longmont, CO USA
    Posts
    1,221
    Quote Originally Posted by brj View Post
    I believe Reeper is trying to find out from Mr. Janich if the Millie/Para series would be as good an option as Delica for SD
    I would be also interested in this as I find myself carrying a Millie/Para more often than not
    Both the Military and th Paramilitary have outstanding potential as personal-defense blades. They have incredible edge geometry, great ergonomics and handle texture, and the locks on both are more than up to the task. For me, there are two minor disadvantages to the Military: the generous lock-release cutout on the obverse handle and the lack of tip-up carry. To be fair, the lock-release cutout is not nearly as significant an issue as on many other liner locks because of the quality of Spyderco's lock engineering and fit and the relatively broad width of the handle, which prevents it from "rolling" in the hand.

    Of the two, the Paramilitary and its compression lock would be my preference. It's blade length also makes it legally permissible in more areas than the Millie. As a side note, a long-time MBC student of mine who also happens to be a government employee thought long and hard about the personal-defense knife he wanted to carry. Based on years of training and lots of careful consideration, he chose the Paramilitary. Unfortunately, he works in a federal building and, though he can carry a knife, is restricted to a 2.5-inch blade length. He is now the proud owner of three 2.5-inch-bladed Paramilitaries and I have a neat pile of steel dust under the grinder in my garage...

    I hope this helps.

    Stay safe,

    Mike
    Michael Janich
    Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
    Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts

  16. #36
    Spyderco Forum Registered User brj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Bucharest, Romania, Europe, Earth
    Posts
    448
    the lack of a dedicated trainer for these folders may also be a drawback...
    Regardless of our native language, we all speak "knife" - Sal

  17. #37
    Spyderco Forum Registered User 224477's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Slovakia
    Posts
    4,158
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Snubnose View Post
    Ok That makes sense, but wouldn't you agree that the Rock Salt was more of a chopping type weapon, and with Largomano movements (Largehand/Long Distance) slashes the Rock Salt might prove to more effective?...Also: Because I or anyone else for that matter other than you and those at the filming of this demo haven't seen this yet I would like to ask you at what point along the blade of the Rock Salt did it make contact with the target, was It just the front leading edge, middle portion or the complete blade...Thanks....Doc
    Good point Doc.
    I would consider the Rock Salt more of a moderns world Bolo or Barong, different moves, different reaction distances /exactly the mentioned largo mano../, more 'heavy' slashes or even chops over fast and short cuts.
    "Having a dull knife is like having a stupid friend."

  18. #38
    Spyderco Forum Registered User SecSpyral's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    705
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Janich View Post
    Dear Doc:

    At largo range I would definitely prefer the Rock Salt over a smaller blade. If you can get away with it, the longest weapon you can wield effectively (as long as it's appropriate to the confines of your environment) is always the best bet.

    During the test, the Rock Salt's blade impacted about midway down the length of the edge. Because of the dropped handle, hitting with the heel of the edge wouldn't work because the blade would truly chop, biting deep and not following through.

    The point of the demo was to show that a big blade was not necessary to create the desired wound--a to-the-bone mobility kill to the quadriceps. For the SPIKE audience (dare I say aless "enlightened" crowd than that of our dedicated forum), it was designed to illustrate a point in a visually dramatic way. Since the Rock Salt has a longer edge than the Delica, it definitely has the potential to cut deeper. To do that, I would have used a pressure cut starting at the heel of the edge and backed the spine of the blade with my left hand. The key is using the full length of the edge during the cut. "Slashes" don't do that.

    I hope this helps.

    Stay safe,

    Mike
    That is amazing. I would have never thought that a Delica would do that much damage! So does this mean that a Delica might be a better MBC option over an Endura? In the video for the new D4/E4 colors you said you carry an Endura and sometimes 2 Delica's. Is this just personal preference or is there a better option. Fortunately I live in an area where I can carry up to 4 inches of steel, so I was going to opt for an Endura but I would rather carry a Delica because of its size and ease of carry if it is as capable in defensive techniques.

    I just have to say that this thread is so great! So much information packed into the text. Thanks to threads like these, I just bought 6 new Spyders.

    - Scott C.
    "Enduras and Delicas are like potato chips--you can't have just one.
    However, unlike potato chips, they're GOOD for you!"
    - Mike J.

  19. #39
    Spyderco Forum Registered User JNewell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Land of the Bean and the Cod
    Posts
    4,722
    Quote Originally Posted by brj View Post
    the lack of a dedicated trainer for these folders may also be a drawback...
    There is always this option - not quite the same but better than nothing (see below)?

    I have a neat pile of steel dust under the grinder in my garage...
    Balance and weight will not be quite the same and you may want to paint the handles blue or red, but it's better than nothing.
    Last edited by JNewell; 04-13-2010 at 10:31 AM.

  20. #40
    Spyderco Forum Registered User SecSpyral's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    705
    Quote Originally Posted by JNewell View Post
    There is always this option - not quite the same but better than nothing (see below)?
    carefully placed tape works as well. This is big in the Bali-Song community as well....even though I don't recommend it. In flipping, the cuts make you more aware.

    - Scott C.
    "Enduras and Delicas are like potato chips--you can't have just one.
    However, unlike potato chips, they're GOOD for you!"
    - Mike J.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •