Delica for defense

[Blerv]

Another big "Welcome Back" to Doc and KaliGMan

Mike you left out eloquence. There is a world full of adrenaline-pumped street fighters but few people who have trained (knife, stick, gun, empty hands, and more), seen the world of law enforcement, and can accurately translate/train that to an audience without sounding a bit maniacal.

Ultimately I feel the world operates on a certain level of moderation. As consumers whether it's knives, cars, electronics (or an endless list of products) we are focused on "what's the best?". It's easier to compensate with the biggest/best performing item and hope it makes up for a lack of training. At the same time we lose track of where reality hits that a set of $200 home speakers at Costco are more than capable of causing a noise disturbance for a long ways (or Delica in this case). You don't need a $5,000 home studio to get the police called.

I've seen more white collar folks at the track totaling Dodge Vipers and exotic sports cars than I can count. A good tool doesn't make up for a lack of training but it may mask inadequacies to a point...which is typically where you get in over your head in a huge way.

For the record: When did "cut to the bone" stop being a terrifying mental picture? Some are reducing the Delica to stun gun status.

[Michael Janich]

I don't know...I am a master of the sour attitude. Just ask my boss or my wife (crap--that would be the same person...)

Dear KaliGman:

Thank you very much for your detailed, well-reasoned posts. Your depth of knowledge and experience brings a lot to this forum and I truly appreciate it.

The sour attitude is indeed a potent weapon--no arguments there. I also think that both we and our wives/bosses have a lot in common.

It's the "keyboard + anonymity = expert" part that I have an issue with...

Thanks again for sharing your insights.

Stay safe,

Mike

[SecSpyral]

It's the "keyboard + anonymity = expert" part that I have an issue with...

I think this is actually another topic all in its own right. The reason why forum communities like this work is because you actually establish an identity based on your user name. I try to use the same one on all related websites as to make sure everyone knows its me. Anonymity isn't necessarily the best thing when you are just typing into oblivion. The internet is a scary place because of it.

[Dr. Snubnose]

quote from Michael Janich: "If you transplant that method into the Western legal system, a thug swings a pipe at your head. You cut the inside of his wrist, severing the flexor tendons and disabling his grip. He drops the weapon or can no longer wield it effectively. You close and start stabbing.

In simple terms, everything was great until you started stabbing. If he no longer posed a threat of death or grievous bodily injury, you can't legally use lethal force against him. What began as self-defense ends up with you being charged for assault with a deadly weapon and possibly attempted murder.

Is that right? Of course not. But that's the way it is."

Ay Mike, No disrespect meant as you already know I hold you very high esteem, And I really think this is more of an argument for the courts or attorneys to debate. And I'd also like to say I'm not just trying to bust chops here with my comments. That being said I must say that I think there might be some faulty thinking here. Yes I agree by using your method ( and this is not an attack on your methodology) what you say above might be true. But I must raise the question, What if you don't slash at your attacker at all in a defensive situation where a thug is wielding a pipe and swinging it at your head? What if you only use stabbing techniques to defend yourself? Will the attorney take you to task for not trying to defang the snake first while your life is on the line? I don't think so. Would be like asking a person who defended himself with a handgun, why didn't you try shooting him in the leg or arm first instead of shooting the torso. If one is permitted by law to defend oneself in a situation where their lives are in peril, and they take all the steps necessary to stop their attacker, I don't think the courts would say a slash as oppose to a stab was a more appropriate response to such a situation and find fault with your actions. In your example the slash that stops an opponent might be construed as reasonable if it did indeed stop your attacker from inflicting bodily harm on you and yes if you continued to fight stab or slash one could argue the force was indeed excessive....but if a stab wound effectively stops my opponent from his illegal actions and I don't continue to stab him 50 times afterwards what would be the difference.....It all about stopping the attack, regardless of the methodology. Doc

[SecSpyral]

Would be like asking a person who defended himself with a handgun, why didn't you try shooting him in the leg or arm first instead of shooting the torso.

Snub, here's the thing. Prosecuting attorneys DO ask this question, a lot actually. The way this system is set up is to see both sides of the argument with a jury deciding who is in the right and who is in the wrong. Sometimes, the wrong decision is made. With that said, it is beneficial to the defender to not give them a choice and make it obvious that you were in fact defending yourself.

Of course if you haul off stabbing someone and you are in the dominant position continuously stabbing, even if it is to defend your own life, it may look bad.

In my firearm courses I've taken over the years, they tell you constantly about the limitations of using it. If an attacker is coming at me with a metal pipe, is close enough, and I fear for my life, in the state of Florida with my permit, I have the right to shoot to defend myself. If this same thing happened, but with me holding a knife and I disable his limb...the argument can and will be made that the hundreds of stab wounds around this guy or girls corpse came from an attack as opposed to a defensive maneuver.

I'll let someone with more legal knowledge answer your in-depth question but from my perspective, it's better to be safe than sorry.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Snub, here's the thing. Prosecuting attorneys DO ask this question, a lot actually. The way this system is set up is to see both sides of the argument with a jury deciding who is in the right and who is in the wrong. Sometimes, the wrong decision is made. With that said, it is beneficial to the defender to not give them a choice and make it obvious that you were in fact defending yourself.

Of course if you haul off stabbing someone and you are in the dominant position continuously stabbing, even if it is to defend your own life, it may look bad.

In my firearm courses I've taken over the years, they tell you constantly about the limitations of using it. If an attacker is coming at me with a metal pipe, is close enough, and I fear for my life, in the state of Florida with my permit, I have the right to shoot to defend myself. If this same thing happened, but with me holding a knife and I disable his limb...the argument can and will be made that the hundreds of stab wounds around this guy or girls corpse came from an attack as opposed to a defensive maneuver.

I'll let someone with more legal knowledge answer your in-depth question but from my perspective, it's better to be safe than sorry.

Couldn't the same be said for hundreds of slash wounds?....Doc

[Reeper22]

Slashing or stabbing is referred to as "deadly force" in just about every jurisdiction. Assuming arguendo that deadly force is warranted, it matters little what the type of deadly force is, whether using a gun, knife, bat, etc. When you are no longer in a position of imminent life threatening danger or danger of great bodily harm, no may no longer use deadly force. If an attacker comes at you with a weapon and your first move is a stab through the neck, it's legal.

[Michael Janich]

[B]Ay Mike, No disrespect meant as you already know I hold you very high esteem, And I really think this is more of an argument for the courts or attorneys to debate. And I'd also like to say I'm not just trying to bust chops here with my comments. That being said I must say that I think there might be some faulty thinking here. Yes I agree by using your method ( and this is not an attack on your methodology) what you say above might be true. But I must raise the question, What if you don't slash at your attacker at all in a defensive situation where a thug is wielding a pipe and swinging it at your head? What if you only use stabbing techniques to defend yourself? Will the attorney take you to task for not trying to defang the snake first while your life is on the line? I don't think so. Would be like asking a person who defended himself with a handgun, why didn't you try shooting him in the leg or arm first instead of shooting the torso. If one is permitted by law to defend oneself in a situation where their lives are in peril, and they take all the steps necessary to stop their attacker, I don't think the courts would say a slash as oppose to a stab was a more appropriate response to such a situation and find fault with your actions. In your example the slash that stops an opponent might be construed as reasonable if it did indeed stop your attacker from inflicting bodily harm on you and yes if you continued to fight stab or slash one could argue the force was indeed excessive....but if a stab wound effectively stops my opponent from his illegal actions and I don't continue to stab him 50 times afterwards what would be the difference.....It all about stopping the attack, regardless of the methodology. Doc

No worries, Doc. It's all in the spirit of good discussion.

Your key phrase is: "It all about stopping the attack, regardless of the methodology."

Add to that the fact that once an attacker no longer poses a lethal threat, you have to stop your application of potentially lethal force.

So, the question remains: What can I cut or puncture with a knife that I can legally carry that will reliably, efficiently, and immediately stop a determined attacker?

Other than CNS shots, I don't know of any targets that I can stab with a 3-inch blade that will produce a reliable physiological stop. If someone else does and they make that the focus of their personal defense tactics, I hope it serves them well.

The bigger issue--regardless of weapon--is being able to articulate why you were in fear for your life AND the logic of what you did to defend yourself. MBC's logic would go something like: "The attacker was armed with a [insert lethal weapon here] and clearly expressed his intent to harm me by saying/doing [description here]. I was in fear for my life, drew my folding knife and gave a verbal command for the attacker to back off. He instead closed and attacked, swinging the weapon at my head. I evaded and cut the inside of his wrist in an effort to cause him to drop his weapon and stop his attack."

I think that's preferable to: "He swung the weapon at my head and I started thrusting my knife into his torso. I kept thrusting until he fell down."

It's also preferable because thrusting to the torso is not physiologically guaranteed to stop anyone quickly. It also can have vastly different results on a 300-pound man than on a 150-pound man--especially with a short blade. Yes, thrusts are more likely to be lethal than cuts; however, they do not produce reliable, rapid stops that will keep you from getting killed.

Even if you refuse to accept that, many of the folks who advocate torso thrusts have no organized method for dealing with the attacker's weapon while they're thrusting. Stabbing him in the torso while he caves your head in with a pipe doesn't sound like much of a "system" to me.

Stay safe,

Mike

[JNewell]

Mike (not surprisingly) has the law right. The presentation of this topic in his latest DVD is excellent: accurate, easy to understand, and brief. Once a deadly force threat has been stopped, the deadly force defense must stop. There may be a few exceptions, in either legal or practical terms, but they are not worth betting even electrons on, much less your liberty or life's savings.

No worries, Doc. It's all in the spirit of good discussion.

Your key phrase is: "It all about stopping the attack, regardless of the methodology."

Add to that the fact that once an attacker no longer poses a lethal threat, you have to stop your application of potentially lethal force.

So, the question remains: What can I cut or puncture with a knife that I can legally carry that will reliably, efficiently, and immediately stop a determined attacker?

Other than CNS shots, I don't know of any targets that I can stab with a 3-inch blade that will produce a reliable physiological stop. If someone else does and they make that the focus of their personal defense tactics, I hope it serves them well.

The bigger issue--regardless of weapon--is being able to articulate why you were in fear for your life AND the logic of what you did to defend yourself. MBC's logic would go something like: "The attacker was armed with a [insert lethal weapon here] and clearly expressed his intent to harm me by saying/doing [description here]. I was in fear for my life, drew my folding knife and gave a verbal command for the attacker to back off. He instead closed and attacked, swinging the weapon at my head. I evaded and cut the inside of his wrist in an effort to cause him to drop his weapon and stop his attack."

I think that's preferable to: "He swung the weapon at my head and I started thrusting my knife into his torso. I kept thrusting until he fell down."

It's also preferable because thrusting to the torso is not physiologically guaranteed to stop anyone quickly. It also can have vastly different results on a 300-pound man than on a 150-pound man--especially with a short blade. Yes, thrusts are more likely to be lethal than cuts; however, they do not produce reliable, rapid stops that will keep you from getting killed.

Even if you refuse to accept that, many of the folks who advocate torso thrusts have no organized method for dealing with the attacker's weapon while they're thrusting. Stabbing him in the torso while he caves your head in with a pipe doesn't sound like much of a "system" to me.

Stay safe,

Mike

[AH2525]

Wow, as is so true of this forum, this thread has turned from educating to enlightening to fun and back again. I think this is evidence of how great the "family" here at the forum is. As the OP, I want to thank everyone especially Mr. Janich for the advice and as said above, the good discussion.

I have to say that:

"A Delica is still a better weapon than a keyboard and a sour attitude..."

is one of the most poignant and at the same time funny quotes I have ever read online. This one deserves to be in a "Great Sayings of the Forum" Archive somewhere.

I will say that I appreciate everyone's responses. My original reason behind my question was that due to my office environment, a Delica goes unnoticed and un-commented on when used and I was curious about the SD possibilities. Obviously there are more SD-purposed blades, but it is informative that carrying what passes largely as a "regular pocketknife" can still have effective SD potential.

Thanks again everyone.

[chuck_roxas45]

Speaking for myself, if I have caused an opponent to stop his attack by disabling his ability to move and to wield his weapon, I would, at the very least keep my distance or run away to report the attack. I think that this course of action limits your exposure to a lucky shot from the assailant and is more consistent with a with a self defense scenario.

This restraint that MBC and Mr. Janich espouses is one of the things I most admire about his defensive methods. Unfortunately MBC training is not accessible to me and my associates so we have to make do with studying his concepts and principles.

[Halfneck]

This thread has provided me with a new sig line.

More importantly though it has been very informative.

[THG]

For the record, I have been involved in a number of self-defense situations. Most have happened quickly (as they usually do) and were empty-hand encounters, so they were settled with empty-hands as well. I have been threatened with knives and my ability to deploy my own knife quickly and confidently was enough to diffuse the situation. I have only had to use a knife once, striking with the closed knife to break contact and then opening it to show that I was prepared to escalate if necessary.

I don't know... He makes a somewhat valid point. I respect Mr. Janich very much and enjoy watching his videos and informationals on Youtube, but has Mr. Janich himself been attacked by a thug by surprise in such a manner Vassili described? (Of course if the answer is yes, then I take back my skepticism.)

I kinda see speculation on both sides.

Like I said, I'll take it back. And I do.

Thanks for sharing.

[SecSpyral]

My point is simple. Carrying Delica or anything is not a solution, may be small part of it. This is a human nature so look for easy and comfortable solution. It is like to get rid of additional weight people buy book or video on how to how to get slim and then simple rest after this doing nothing - like it is done already - book was bought...

So if tiny teenager ask Michael "do you think Delica will be good for SD" and Micael reply - that "Yes I am carry Delica and can defend myself with it and I train police etc to do same". I may imagine this tiny teenager may start carry Delica with him being sure that he will be able to defend himself too.

Now Michael is expert in this area, he also big and strong as well as people whom he train - police officers etc. But this is lost out of scope of this discussion! If 6 feet 200 pounds Michael training constantly can defend himself with (or most likely even without) Delica - this does not mean that 5 feet 100 pound teenager can do the same with Delica or Endura or even KaBar or Randall!

This is what bother me most - some kids may get wrong impression that they are safe just because they carry Delica and got in trouble. While what they really need it to get good training and first not even in knife fight but in basic martial arts - boxing and wreastling (real one - judo, sambo) or just learn how to punch someone in a face or kick in the balls. Just generic physical and mental strength do much better then Delica (balet dancer can easy put down five attacker without too much training in martial arts, it is actually recorded). But better learn how to recognize potentially dangerous situations and avoid them.

Thanks, Vassili.

I'm pretty sure we all agree that someone without training is less likely to use the tool properly. I understand what you are saying Vassili, but I don't think this thread is glorifying violence and getting teenagers to buy knives and not learn how to defend themselves properly like you imply in the above statement.

I think you're missing the point here.

[SecSpyral]

You understand my concern and it is important to me, because this kind of thread will be read by audience I am worry about - I just want to state this clear here and I hope Michael will support this (because I do not feel like I too much in disagreement with him).

Delica alone is not solution - to be safe you need to do more then just carry Delica but you need to be strong, you need to be trained and you must understand all legal implications - what can be done and what can not. After all this is question of life and death not only for you but for you opponent - who is also human being.

Thanks, Vassili.

I'm pretty sure we will all agree.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Funny thing is....100lb person can defend himself very well, just like the big guys, when it comes to using a knife for defensive purposes...you see the knife does all the work, you don't have to be strong to use a knife effectively. Yes better to be trained in it's uses, yes better to be trained to take in your environment and be aware of potential danger so that you may be able to avoid trouble when it is coming your way. I don't think tne teenage population is going to run out and buy up all the Delica knives because Michael carrys one. To tell you the truth, at my knife fighting workshops and classes, I have never had a teenager attend, nor ask me about knife fighting...defensive or otherwise...the teenages I know are more interested in Ipods, Texting on their cell phones and playing video games....So if they are getting the wrong idea about what knives are for, blame their parents who are not involved or interested about their kids life, blame those parents who don't spend the time to teach them right from wrong....Carrying the Delica alone is not the solution...but be aware it's not the problem either.....Doc

[224477]

Vasilij, just in short, I dont think you can offer a single serving solution to a 'skinny teenager' by just giving him 'some proper' knife, but primary giving him a proper training and attitude /fighting spirit/.
Second, you need to realize that not everyone who decided for themselves to carry a blade for protection has the psychic ability to use it. I have seen guys at diff. FMA workshops which were green faced after seeing the 'end ups' in the techniques, I wont get into details, but knife players know what I mean. You dont have 'balls' for knives? Take pepper spray. Or take a gun if you can. Knife is always butchery, one has to take it, or leave. Expect to cut, expect to GET CUT too, and you are good enough if you manage to cut without cutting yourself in the adrenaline pump SHTF scenarios.

Its not about being skinny or not skinny, its about the mental state of mind, a 60kg person can get down a 130kg body builder, with proper mindset and proper skills. You can provide someone with ANY weapon, just if they broke down mentally in the SHTF they wont be able to do anything, and the bad guys even use your weapon then.

In knife work, I dont believe in showing off your weapon. Mike mentioned that he managed to back someone off of by showing his weapon, to the other who already had one, and bad guy /BG/ realised that this will be contact, not just a thread pose, so better left. Okey, nice, all fights the dont soak blood are better, hands down. But I always say, dont show off, if you need to use it, let him feel the blade not see it. If you can not, then forget about carrying a knife for protection, carry it for EDC works, apple peeling, etc. Put it off your head as a weapon, as you dont have the mental setup to use it.

Its the mental spirit what makes the 'warrior' /understand in terms of a person who is able to fight or defend effectively/ not the weapon. The weapon is just a tool. Tools can be different. As said, same job, with proper spirit, can be achieved with broken glass in a piece of cloth, shank, 1.99$ kitchen knife, spyderco folder or a 1000$ custom blade designed to be effective fighting/defensive knife.

[JNewell]

Mr. Janich - question for you.

If you were looking at a Delica (or for that matter, an Endura), for this purpose, would you prefer:

1. hollow ground D3
2. saber grind D4
3. full flat grind D4

I'm assuming plain edge in each case based on your earlier comments, but if you would make a different choice on that depending on the blade, that would be interesting to hear as well.

Thanks to all for a thread that has remained informative and polite.

[Michael Janich]

Interestingly, I was once a skinny teenager. I learned about knives and trained hard to develop defensive skills. My parents did their job well and I stayed out of trouble.

I am now the parent of a skinny (female) teenager and have done my best to guide and teach her well. She has chosen not to carry a knife, but is competent with other weapons and skills. She is also smart enough to avoid trouble.

I can't control who reads this thread. If the parents of other skinny teenagers aren't doing their jobs, that's not my problem.

Bottom line: The Delica is a very capable knife. Get training to go with it, make the commitment to avoid trouble, and you can be well prepared.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Michael Janich]

Mr. Janich - question for you.

If you were looking at a Delica (or for that matter, an Endura), for this purpose, would you prefer:

1. hollow ground D3
2. saber grind D4
3. full flat grind D4

I'm assuming plain edge in each case based on your earlier comments, but if you would make a different choice on that depending on the blade, that would be interesting to hear as well.

Thanks to all for a thread that has remained informative and polite.

FFG D4 in a nice PC color--and a matching trainer.

Off to Ohio to teach and train MBC!

Stay safe,

Mike