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Thread: Pro's and Con's to Black Coated Blades

  1. #1
    Spyderco Forum Registered User FIMS's Avatar
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    Pro's and Con's to Black Coated Blades

    Done a search and haven't found anything on this topic.

    Im thinking of getting the all black Salt H1 and possibly the all black Endura and Delica in the future.

    I love the all blacked Salt H1 but am concerned about the blade finish. Im assuming it will scratch and wear when it becomes sharpened.

    Any input?
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  2. #2
    Spyderco Forum Registered User hickster's Avatar
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    The black coating will wear, but not really scratch so much (unless handled very roughly). But then again, the uncoated H1 will show small scratches easily. The coated blade will not be as "slick" and will offer a bit of resistance when cutting through stuff like cardboard.
    The coating offers no rust/stain resistance (H1 is impervious anyway) but is intended strictly to prevent reflections and "flash of the blade" when trying to be stealthy (dare I say it... tactical ).
    Me? I got one because it looks so dang cool!
    You can also get a Pacific Salt with a black handle and uncoated blade.
    hickster

  3. #3
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    IIRC TazKristi has said either on here or BF that with the coating, rust can happen unnoticed underneath, which is worse than if they were visible. I'd wait for confirmation on that, though, because I could have it out of context.

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    thats what kristi said but the h-1 won't rust so yeah... think of it like a car thats held together by the paint when they start to rust under the paint and then the paint bubbles and chips away and it's too late.

  5. #5
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Jay_Ev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaust View Post
    IIRC TazKristi has said either on here or BF that with the coating, rust can happen unnoticed underneath, which is worse than if they were visible. I'd wait for confirmation on that, though, because I could have it out of context.
    I think she was referring to black coated blades that are not made of H1 steel. (black bladed Native, Paramilitary, etc)
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  6. #6
    Spyderco Forum Registered User java's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_Ev View Post
    I think she was referring to black coated blades that are not made of H1 steel. (black bladed Native, Paramilitary, etc)
    No rust here on the black blade.... or handle or the gold either.



    Slight wear on coating near pivot.



    j
    Last edited by java; 10-27-2009 at 10:23 PM.
    When I said that mercy stood
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  7. #7
    Spyderco Forum Registered User FIMS's Avatar
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    ^Wow.

    How did you get the Spydies those colours?
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    Spyderco Forum Registered User java's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIMS View Post
    ^Wow.

    How did you get the Spydies those colours?
    Spyderco did some test runs using vapor deposition coatings of TiN and TiCN on some Workers and Standards a number of years back. I believe it was John Jensen who worked with Spyderco on these. At any rate John had these last three for sale on his web site about 7 years ago and I "procured" them. John included a letter explaining the coatings and their history. If I can find it I'll add more info. Meanwhile here's a lttle regarding the coatings and their benefits (at least for machine tools):

    Coating: Titanium Nitride TiN
    The TiN coating is a uniform thin ceramic layer (1-3 microns) gold colored, coated under the physical vapor deposition process (VDP). This low temperature process allows the coating of HSS without changing the tool structure.
    Advantages of TiN coating:

    • Surface hardness of 80 Rc (the tool hardness 63-67 Rc) protects tool from aeration and damaging effects of heat.
    • Increases tool durability and tool life. Higher feeds and speeds can be used.
    • Better wear resistance. The hard layer tin coating increases wear resistance.
    • Higher lubricity. Less friction, freer chip flow reduces built-up edge formation giving a better workpiece finish.
    • Corrosion resistant significally improved.



    Coating: Titanium Carbonitride TiCN
    A very hard ceramic multi-layer hardness (92 Rc) thin film (1-3 micron) gray colored compared to TiN hardness (80 Rc) and carbide (76 Rc).
    One of the main advantages of TiCN coating is superior wear resistance


    j
    When I said that mercy stood
    Within the border of the wood
    I meant the lenient beast with claws
    And bloody swift dispatching jaws.


    Death Before Decaf!
    !

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by java View Post
    Spyderco did some test runs using vapor deposition coatings of TiN and TiCN on some Workers and Standards a number of years back. I believe it was John Jensen who worked with Spyderco on these. At any rate John had these last three for sale on his web site about 7 years ago and I "procured" them. John included a letter explaining the coatings and their history. If I can find it I'll add more info. Meanwhile here's a lttle regarding the coatings and their benefits (at least for machine tools):

    Coating: Titanium Nitride TiN
    The TiN coating is a uniform thin ceramic layer (1-3 microns) gold colored, coated under the physical vapor deposition process (VDP). This low temperature process allows the coating of HSS without changing the tool structure.
    Advantages of TiN coating:

    • Surface hardness of 80 Rc (the tool hardness 63-67 Rc) protects tool from aeration and damaging effects of heat.
    • Increases tool durability and tool life. Higher feeds and speeds can be used.
    • Better wear resistance. The hard layer tin coating increases wear resistance.
    • Higher lubricity. Less friction, freer chip flow reduces built-up edge formation giving a better workpiece finish.
    • Corrosion resistant significally improved.



    Coating: Titanium Carbonitride TiCN
    A very hard ceramic multi-layer hardness (92 Rc) thin film (1-3 micron) gray colored compared to TiN hardness (80 Rc) and carbide (76 Rc).
    One of the main advantages of TiCN coating is superior wear resistance


    j
    Those coatings sound like they have a lot of advantages. Any idea why Spyderco didn't use them on any knives?

  10. #10
    Spyderco Forum Registered User FIMS's Avatar
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    That would be a definite selling point for me if S.Co. went that direction.
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  11. #11
    Spyderco Forum Registered User The Deacon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIMS View Post
    That would be a definite selling point for me if S.Co. went that direction.
    Except it might be a step backward. I'd assume that Spyderco changed from Ti-Ni to Diamond Like Carbon coating because DLC was better.
    Paul
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  12. #12
    Spyderco Forum Registered User java's Avatar
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    Hi, Paul

    Better is good. The early nitride coatings have been surpassed by as we progress.

    The advantages of DLC lie in the application process and the stress free film it creates. Low cost DLCs came out in 1998 as a result of researchers at Sandia Labs searching for better and cheaper ways to lay down layers of amorphous diamond films. For the normal PVD processes like TiN, TiAln, or TiCN, process temperatures are between 700 - 850. Amorphous diamond films can be deposited at close to room temperature using a pulsed laser process and heated to 150 C to “relax” the film stress. This gives better adherence to the coated surface. It makes them very suitable for knives and their max working temp of 500 C also makes them useful for machining. DLC is very hard at thin - 600A or less - thicknesses and hard - 1,000 to 3,000Hv. It is also pretty much inert to most chemicals and has a low coefficient of friction.

    TiAlN has a hardness rating of 4,000 to 4,200 Hv but the temps and cost of equipment for the process are not as good. The coefficient of friction for TiN is also more than 4 times that of DLCs.



    I have to backtrack on my original post regarding the knives. The Black/Gray coating is TiAlN. At the time the coating processes were available to a few vendors in the US including Buck, Timberline, and John. Buck found the TiN to be hard and extremely durable. They also had favorable remarks for the multilayered TiAlN’s edge holding ability. I can neither confirm nor deny from personal experience as they have been stored in the same condition I received them.

    John’s knives are their own product modification. Spyderco was aware of the modifications but I don’t know what their interest was after they were coated. Since it is Jensen’s mod, the manufacturer’s warranty would have been void.

    It would be nice to hear from Sal regarding his original thoughts on Mr. Jensen’s mod.



    j
    When I said that mercy stood
    Within the border of the wood
    I meant the lenient beast with claws
    And bloody swift dispatching jaws.


    Death Before Decaf!
    !

  13. #13
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    I have one of the original all black Enduras. It has some scratching in the coating but most of it is still there after all these years and lots of use. This knife was far from babied. It was never left sitting in salt water but I owned it before I started taking care of my knives and it doesn't have any rust.

    I am a fan of H1 and a have a few knives in it but for someone like me away from salt water and other causes for rust it really is overkill. Since I started collecting and treating my knives well I have never had a modern knife steel even slightly rust.

    I certainly am not trying to steer you away from a Pacific Salt, coated or not. My non-coated Pacific Salt is one of my favorite Spyderco's.
    ...

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