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Thread: Reflections on Restricted Items

  1. #61
    Spyderco Forum Registered User The Deacon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milu View Post
    As you rightly say, judges and policeman are quite happy to explain it But my question was meant in a more general way not specifically weapons. For example pogroms in nazi Germany - where do we draw the line on wrong laws, at what point do we react, when do we stop being frightened of beng punished for breaking a law that is wrong? And I stress again it is much easier to pass a law than to repeal it.
    Personally, I'd place the point at which getting arrested for engaging in civil disobedience to protest a bad law becomes an acceptable risk somewhere between a law which, at its worst, deprives me of the ability to legally own an amusing toy and one which sanctions genocide.

    As with most things in life, that point will differ from person to person. It will also vary, at least for those with some intelligence, based on the relationship between the risk of punishment, the severity of punishment, and the egregiousness of the law. Other factors can enter into it too. I know that both my age and five years of working "in population" in prisons have made me more risk averse in that regard that I might have been thirty odd years ago.

    There are, of course, some laws which can be broken by individuals with relative impunity, as long as they are broken quietly. But to claim that is civil disobedience would be absurd. The one act is altruistic, the other totally self-serving.
    Paul
    My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Kiwimania ---- Spydiewiki
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  2. #62
    Spyderco Forum Registered User DrBlade's Avatar
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    Is it better not understood... for who?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaliGman View Post
    (2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both.
    .
    This would include most of the Spyderco line-up and many other folding knives .

  4. #64
    Spyderco Forum Registered User RJNC's Avatar
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    Butch had a funny point, you can carry a concealed pistol in the U.S., but not a balisong or auto if you're an ordinary citizen. You should be able to obtain a license for auto knives like pistols.

  5. #65
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Knife Crazied's Avatar
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    Does a correctional officer fall in the ALLOWED group??

  6. #66
    Spyderco Forum Registered User FreeRider67's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    having retired from law enforcement in 95`, and what I know of technology and today's enforcement efforts; please do not boast of your illegal possessions or the methods employed to obtain them. especially when a paper or tech trail is being left. all you do is set yourself up for failure, down the road.

    in the art of war... you do not boast of your weapons. you allow the other side to discover them; when it is too late.

    keeps your toys and noise in your hands and in your minds.

    I can assure you that the moron that whips out an auto knife, to portray themself as a Bad Ass; would be more viewd as a Dumb Ass. yet... if Joe Citizen happened upon a vehicle accident, popped it out and freed an entrapment; no one would bust your chops over it.

    it is more of a Common Sense aspect...
    Last edited by FreeRider67; 07-27-2009 at 06:29 PM.

  7. #67
    Spyderco Forum Registered User FreeRider67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knife Crazied View Post
    Does a correctional officer fall in the ALLOWED group??
    yes!!!!! and so do EMS and Fire Fighters.

    I just wouldn't take it into resticted areas. you may find out what it was intended for.

    you know... that Law of Unintended Consequence

  8. #68
    Spyderco Forum Registered User The Deacon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeRider67 View Post
    yes!!!!! and so do EMS and Fire Fighters.
    I'd say that may (or may not) be true at the Federal level. However, I'm disinclined to think it would be true in all states at the State level. It would depend on how the exemptions in the State law were worded combined with the status of Corrections Officers in that state. Here in New York, for example, there is even some question as to whether Police Officer's are legally entitled to purchase automatics as individuals.

    That said, out of "professional courtesy", if nothing else, the chances of a Police Officer actually arresting another cop, or a CO, Fireman, or EMS worker on a weapons charge unless said person had been caught on camera doing something outrageously stupid with one, is pretty remote.
    Paul
    My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Kiwimania ---- Spydiewiki
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  9. #69
    Spyderco Forum Registered User thibaud.1.80's Avatar
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    Hey!!!!

    I think at the brand Benchmade....
    Lot of auto , balisong and others....
    And no problem to buy...By anyone... Why ???
    Sorry for my ignorance of your law... I am French.
    Thank you.

    Tibo.
    Last edited by thibaud.1.80; 07-29-2009 at 07:24 PM.
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  10. #70
    Spyderco Forum Registered User FreeRider67's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    many of our laws attempt to prohibit what the criminals may posses. however, in doing so; it prohibits the honest people for possessing the same item. and the criminals do not obey the laws anyway. so the only persons that are truly effected by the laws, are the people the laws are meant to protect.

    I hope this answers your question and provides you some insight to a portion of our legal system.

    George

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeRider67 View Post
    many of our laws attempt to prohibit what the criminals may posses. however, in doing so; it prohibits the honest people for possessing the same item. and the criminals do not obey the laws anyway. so the only persons that are truly effected by the laws, are the people the laws are meant to protect.

    I hope this answers your question and provides you some insight to a portion of our legal system.

    George
    That applies to a lot of things. A small percentage of people misuse something and other people, who don't use the item in question, decide to outlaw the knife, gun, motorcycle, etc. Funny that nobody ever tries to outlaw cars to prevent all the car-related deaths each year.

  12. #72
    Spyderco Forum Registered User thibaud.1.80's Avatar
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    O.K...
    Thank you....
    Strange......

    Tibo.(France).
    Rockkkkk nn rroollllllll !!!!!!!!!

  13. #73
    Spyderco Forum Registered User The Deacon's Avatar
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    Another explanation. Unlike many other countries, laws made by the US government are not always interpreted the same way throughout the country, unless there has been a specific ruling by our Supreme Court. Our federal court system is divided into 11 geographic regions, called Circuits. Each Circuit can, and sometimes does, interpret a given law differently.

    In the case of automatics and balisongs, the 10th Circuit, where Spyderco is located, has interpreted the law more strictly, and many feel inaccurately, when compared with other Circuits. That means their balisongs are subject to rules no other maker's balisongs are, since no other makers are located in the jurisdiction of the 10th Circuit.

    It also means Spyderco must make more effort to insure their dealers comply with the laws governing automatics than any other manufacturer must. According to Federal law, the only state where persons other than LEOs and the military can purchase any make of automatic legally is in the state where that maker is located. In reality, most manufacturers do not enforce compliance by their dealers and so, in states where state law allows private citizens to own autos, you can buy pretty much any brand.

    The good news for you is that the law here doesn't govern overseas sales, so if autos are legal in France, you should be able to buy a Spyderco auto.
    Paul
    My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Kiwimania ---- Spydiewiki
    Dead horses beaten, sacred cows tipped, chimeras hunted when time permits.
    WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!

  14. #74
    Spyderco Forum Registered User thibaud.1.80's Avatar
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    O.K Paul ....

    Thank you !!!
    Great explanation.
    Now, i understand.

    Tibo.(France).
    Rockkkkk nn rroollllllll !!!!!!!!!

  15. #75
    Spyderco Forum Registered User SolidState's Avatar
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    So where do trainers stand? Officially they don't seem to be a knife because they are unable to cut or divide things. Can I buy one of those if I am not law enforcement? I don't see why I could not, but laws don't always make sense.

    Also, what if I buy it in Oregon? I was recently at a show here where I saw hundreds of balis. I understand that the court jurisdiction is totally different than Colorado, so is it illegal to sell balis across state lines if the two states allow them? What about if they were produced in Colorado?
    "Nothing is so fatal to the progress of the human mind as to suppose that our views of science are ultimate; that there are no mysteries in nature; that our triumphs are complete, and that there are no new worlds to conquer."
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  16. #76
    Spyderco Forum Registered User The Deacon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolidState View Post
    So where do trainers stand? Officially they don't seem to be a knife because they are unable to cut or divide things. Can I buy one of those if I am not law enforcement? I don't see why I could not, but laws don't always make sense.

    Also, what if I buy it in Oregon? I was recently at a show here where I saw hundreds of balis. I understand that the court jurisdiction is totally different than Colorado, so is it illegal to sell balis across state lines if the two states allow them? What about if they were produced in Colorado?
    Please keep in mind that my understanding may not be correct. That said, as I understand it, if you are outside the jurisdiction of the US 10th Circuit Court and are violating no laws in your own state by purchasing a SmallFly Trainer. You would only have a problem if it needed service. At that point you'd be out of luck, because Spyderco could not legally return it to you or, AFAIK, send you parts for it. The same would be true of live blade Spyderco balisongs.

    That is, of course, unless you're planning on annoying Uncle Sugar enough to encourage him to think up creative ways to screw you.
    Paul
    My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Kiwimania ---- Spydiewiki
    Dead horses beaten, sacred cows tipped, chimeras hunted when time permits.
    WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!

  17. #77
    Spyderco Forum Registered User SolidState's Avatar
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    Thanks Deacon. I'm waiting for KGM to respond, he seems to have the answers on this one.
    Last edited by SolidState; 04-19-2010 at 09:47 PM.
    "Nothing is so fatal to the progress of the human mind as to suppose that our views of science are ultimate; that there are no mysteries in nature; that our triumphs are complete, and that there are no new worlds to conquer."
    Sir Humphry Davy

  18. #78
    Spyderco Forum Registered User KaliGman's Avatar
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    Interstate Commerce

    If an item is manufactured in one state and shipped to another, it constitutes interstate commerce and federal regulations apply. According to the way that Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) seems to be interpreting the "Switchblade Act" and the way the case law in the 10th Circuit has defined "switchblade or automatic knife," a 'fly is considered an automatic knife. Even if you live in Oregon, where state law allows you to purchase and possess balisongs, if the knife travelled in interstate commerce, you could have some federal "issues." Since Spyderco is abiding by its agreement in the 10th Circuit, and is expecting its distributors and dealers to abide by 10th Circuit rulings, none of the Spyderco autos or 'flys that you saw should have been available for purchase by the general public. Further, Spyderco will not service or perform any warranty work on an auto or 'fly which is not accompanied by the appropriate paperwork, and would be unable to return such a knife to the owner if said owner sent it in without the appropriate paperwork. Spyderco is considering the trainers as balisongs and subject to full regulation. I am unsure if this is due to the legal opinion of their attorney and in order to limit future financial losses, whether this is a stipulation of the agreement that was reached with the 10th Circuit and ICE in order to have their court case resolved, or whether this is in direct response to guidelines and rulings distributed to Spyderco by ICE. I will say that, in the current environment, you may be taking a chance buying an auto or balisong that is not made in Oregon. Will you be prosecuted? Probably not, but there is the possibility. I would stick to items made in Oregon if I were you. My feeling on this issue is that there are eventually going to be more cases involving other knife companies or said companies are going to be provided with some ICE rulings, and that this interpretation of what is "an automatic knife" is going to become the standard for the nation. Alternatively, the 10th Circuit decision may be vacated, either through legistlation or a new court proceeding (though this is less likely than having more regulation, based on my experience in federal law enforcment in the last few years). Having what amounts to widely divergent standards as to what constitutes an automatic knife affecting interstate commerce is completely unsatisfactory, and I wish the whole issue were moot and auto, balis, etc. were legal, at least on the federal level.

    Hope this was some help to you, though I know that the answer is disappointing. In my opinion, the whole thing is somewhat silly, but I don't make the law. Currently, I am more concerned with the violent criminals that my task force is targeting. I wish these bad guys were carrying balisongs and automatic knives, and not wearing body armor and carrying 7.62mm x 39mm rifles.
    "There is no weapon more deadly than the will." Bruce Lee

    "The most pervasive and least condemned form of dishonesty is not doing the best you can." Colonel Jeff Cooper

  19. #79
    Spyderco Forum Registered User SolidState's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaliGman View Post
    If an item is manufactured in one state and shipped to another, it constitutes interstate commerce and federal regulations apply....... Even if you live in Oregon, where state law allows you to purchase and possess balisongs, if the knife travelled in interstate commerce, you could have some federal "issues."......... I will say that, in the current environment, you may be taking a chance buying an auto or balisong that is not made in Oregon.... I would stick to items made in Oregon if I were you.
    Thank you for the answer to my question. Being that there are options in my state, I will stick to those to avoid ICE issues. It is kind of a bummer that Spyderco isn't an option for me. Maybe I should try to machine one from scratch. Anybody got the cad files?

    Thanks again for the answer and stay safe.
    "Nothing is so fatal to the progress of the human mind as to suppose that our views of science are ultimate; that there are no mysteries in nature; that our triumphs are complete, and that there are no new worlds to conquer."
    Sir Humphry Davy

  20. #80
    Spyderco Forum Registered User HellHound's Avatar
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    And who needs those autos and balisongs anyways? Endura wave and zip tie mods are way more faster.Even the military and other models are as fast to deploy.

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