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Thread: Reflections on Restricted Items

  1. #1
    Spyderco Forum Registered User KaliGman's Avatar
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    Reflections on Restricted Items

    This post is not directed at those knife aficionados on the forum who live outside of the United States, as the laws regarding balisongs and automatic knives vary greatly from country to country. I am sure that some will take this post as a personal affront, be offended, or get angry with me, but so be it. This message needs to be posted here, as people on the forum continue to exhibit behavior that needs to be addressed. If you are a member of the forum and are not law enforcement or military I would suggest that you not post photos or otherwise discuss your illegally owned Spyderco balisong or automatic knives, discuss how to circumvent the law and obtain a Spyderco automatic or balisong, or otherwise discuss breaking the law, Many people seem to be under the mistaken belief that, as their state law does not prohibit the possession of an automatic or balisong knife, they can legally possess a Spyderco auto or balisong. This is incorrect. By way of explanation, let us discuss the applicable federal statute and some recent history.

    Here is the applicable statute (source—United States Code):

    “United States Code
    TITLE 15 - COMMERCE AND TRADE
    CHAPTER 29 - MANUFACTURE, TRANSPORTATION, OR DISTRIBUTION OF SWITCHBLADE KNIVES
    Section 1241. Definitions
    As used in this chapter -
    (a) The term ''interstate commerce'' means commerce between any State, Territory, possession of the United States, or the District of Columbia, and any place outside thereof.
    (b) The term ''switchblade knife'' means any knife having a blade which opens automatically -
    (1) by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the handle of the knife, or
    (2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both.
    Section 1242. Introduction, manufacture for introduction, transportation or distribution in interstate commerce; penalty
    Whoever knowingly introduces, or manufactures for introduction, into interstate commerce, or transports or distributes in interstate commerce, any switchblade knife, shall be fined not more than $2,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
    Section 1243. Manufacture, sale, or possession within specific jurisdictions; penalty
    Whoever, within any Territory or possession of the United States, within Indian country (as defined in section 1151 of title 18), or within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States (as defined in section 7 of title 18), manufactures, sells, or possesses any switchblade knife, shall be fined not more than $2,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
    Section 1244. Exceptions
    Sections 1242 and 1243 of this title shall not apply to -
    (1) any common carrier or contract carrier, with respect to any switchblade knife shipped, transported, or delivered for shipment in interstate commerce in the ordinary course of business;
    (2) the manufacture, sale, transportation, distribution, possession, or introduction into interstate commerce, of switchblade knives pursuant to contract with the Armed Forces;
    (3) the Armed Forces or any member or employee thereof acting in the performance of his duty; or
    (4) the possession, and transportation upon his person, of any switchblade knife with a blade three inches or less in length by any individual who has only one arm.”


    Case law (judicial interpretation) and legislative action have expanded the “military” exemption to law enforcement (and usually fire/rescue) in the performance of their duties. Those who have been here awhile or who have closely followed Spyderco understand that Spyderco has had some issues with its balisongs (source American Law Newswire):

    United States Attorney Scott N. Schools announced that Spyderco, Inc., a Colorado corporation, pleaded guilty and was sentenced today to mailing butterfly knives, which are nonmailable, to pay a $75,000 criminal fine, a $125 special assessment, and to forfeit all such knives seized by the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement from its corporate offices in Golden, Colorado (estimated to be valued at over $400,000). The guilty plea and sentence is the result of an investigation by United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement ("ICE").

    In pleading guilty, Spyderco admitted that from June 2005 through January 2007, it had mailed butterfly knives, after importing the knife components from Taipei, Taiwan, through the Port of San Francisco and the Port of Oakland, to Golden, Colorado. The U.S. Customs and Border Patrol had issued a ruling to Spyderco holding that these knives fit the definition of "switchblade knives" as an imported knife "with a blade which opens automatically by operation of inertia, gravity, or both" and were therefore not allowed into the United States pursuant to the Switchblade Knife Act, 15 U.S.C. 1241-1245, and were further not to be mailed in the United States.

    Spyderco agreed to issue a Notice of Recall on its internet site for these butterfly knives and to mail this recall notice to reasonably identifiable customers. Spyderco also agreed not to import, transport, distribute, manufacture, sell, introduce, or attempt to introduce into interstate commerce knives defined as switchblades under the Switchblade Knife Act, in violation of the law.

    The sentence was handed down by U.S. Magistrate Judge Wayne D. Brazil following the corporate guilty plea to one violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1716(j)(1), a class A misdemeanor.

    Maureen Bessette is the Assistant U.S. Attorney who prosecuted the case with the assistance of Cynthia Daniel. The prosecution is the result of a one year investigation by the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement.”


    It is my understanding that the Newswire did not get all of the facts completely correct, but the gist of the matter is that Spyderco took a financial hit and had to change the way in which it was doing business in regard to balisong knives. What all of the above means to all the “knife people” on this forum is that Spyderco is complying with rulings and opinions handed down in the 10th Circuit, District of Colorado. As the District of Colorado is treating balisongs as automatic knives (switchblades), it is illegal for Spyderco to introduce into interstate commerce (i.e. to sell or ship such items outside of the state of Colorado) balisongs and automatic knives unless such knives are being sold to a distributer or dealer which has agreed to sell such items only to law enforcement or the military, or Spyderco sells the knives directly to the military or law enforcement officers. Spyderco distributors have signed agreements with Spyderco regarding this practice. If Spyderco discovers some distributor/dealer is not honoring their agreement, Spyderco will discontinue doing business with said dealer.

    Spyderco is doing all that it can to remain on the “good side” of this “bad issue.” Do I like what has happened? No. Do I think that automatic knives and balisongs are going to cause any real problems out in society? No. Do I make federal law? No, but I do enforce it. This brings me to my final point in this monster-length post.

    For those who have obtained the Spyderco balisongs or automatic knives and who are not law enforcement/emergency response or military, you are illegally in possession of such knives. Now, as in the peer-to-peer music and file sharing realm, where sometimes a person who had just downloaded a few songs was prosecuted, you are putting yourself at risk by posting about your illegality on a public forum. You can be sure that Immigration and Custom’s Enforcement is watching to make sure that Spyderco honors its agreements. If ICE or another federal agency decides to proceed with a criminal investigation, it would take merely a couple of subpoenas to get your IP and email addresses from Spyderco, and then your name and other identifying information from your email or Internet service provider. Some people may be charged “as an example” or sample group to show the “extent of the problem.” Do I know if this is being planned? No, and if I did I sure would not disclose it. Could this happen? Yes, I have seen similar tactics used in other investigations. Please note that, if you can’t legally possess a Spyderco balisong or automatic knife and are crowing about your ownership of such a knife on a public forum, all you are doing is putting Spyderco in the cross-hairs of another potential federal investigation and are possibly inviting yourself along for the ride. In addition, you put every federal law enforcement agent on the forum who has jurisdiction in regard to U.S. Code Title 15, Chapter 29, Section 1241 in an awkward position. Does such an officer report you to ICE, initiate his or her own investigation, or what? As for me, I will get a few of the restricted items as I am federal law enforcement. I don’t plan to be in this section of the forum much. I do hope that everyone plays nice over here. I would hate to see more bad stuff go out toward Golden for no good reason. For the record, if you have a Spyderco balisong or automatic knife and bought it in violation of the law I encourage you to dispose of it properly. Now, as Johnny Storm would say “Flame On” for I am sure to be blasted for this one.
    Last edited by KaliGman; 05-06-2008 at 02:35 PM.
    "There is no weapon more deadly than the will." Bruce Lee

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  2. #2
    Spyderco Forum Registered User raven's Avatar
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    Hey KaliGman, I Totally Agree With What You've Stated.

    My Fellow Spydie Family and Forumites, What you need to understand here, is that KaliGman is doing nothing more than sticking up for Our Beloved Spyderco and Trying To Keep You All Out Of Trouble . It's hard to understand where We're Coming From, From The Law Enforcement Point Of View ... We All Also Have Our Opinions, and It's A Free Country and We Know Many Will Voice Those Opinions. KaliGman is speaking From A Federal Law Enforcement Point Of View and Probably Knows More Than Most Here regarding the Law. It takes but only a few Strategic Phone Calls and Investigation, before you know it Spyderco is taking a MAJOR Hit In The Knife Industry and Their Reputation Is In The Crapper!!! Along with that, some may get dragged into an Investigation and Possibly Charged, Attorney Fees, Bad Feelings. All I know Is It Can Get Really Bad and Just Go Down Hill in A Heart Beat.

    All I ask ... PLEASE GIVE IT SOME THOUGHT BEFORE SAYING OR DOING ANYTHING. THANKS FOR LISTENING. Take Good Care All and Be Safe Always.

    God Bless


    -raven-
    Last edited by raven; 05-06-2008 at 10:11 PM.
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  3. #3
    Spyderco Forum Registered User tonydahose's Avatar
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    i have no problem with the post...spyderco needs to cover their butt. Like Rodney Dangerfield said "Watchout for number 1 and don't step in number 2" . I figure getting to own one legally is one of the perks to putting your life on the line. My only question is the fire/rescue clearly exempt from the law like police and military...it seems like that is the grey area.
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    Spyderco Forum Registered User butch's Avatar
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    dang and this all had to wait till i got out the corp
    i i want a smallfly to play with ("play" cause i have many more useful spyders to carry)
    its a shame that even after i get my carry permit for a pistol still couldn't have a fly

    o well what can you do right
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    Thanks for the great explanation, KaliGMan. I own neither automatics nor balisongs and have often wondered about the regulations. It seems pretty cut & dry to me after your post.

    It is a shame, though, that we continue to elect governments that do nothing but erode our liberties in the name of safety. Maybe some day we can win back our freedoms and be able to own these fine bladed pieces of art.

  6. #6
    Spyderco Forum Registered User amen74's Avatar
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    KaliGman. You are actually doing us all a favor by posting this. If anyone does not understand that Spyderco and Co are just covering their butts, well I don't know what to say about that.

    This post was very informative and was the right thing do to. I read it twice.
    Aaron

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User ClockWork's Avatar
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    All I can say is:

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    Spyderco Forum Registered User Agent Starling's Avatar
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    lots of good info...

    Very informative post, KaliGman. My understanding is that when there is a conflict between state and federal law, the stricter law is to be followed, and that is one thing I gleaned from your post. Thanks for the info.

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  9. #9
    Spyderco Forum Registered User KaliGman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Starling View Post
    Very informative post, KaliGman. My understanding is that when there is a conflict between state and federal law, the stricter law is to be followed, and that is one thing I gleaned from your post. Thanks for the info.

    Agent Starling
    Starling,

    If there is a major conflict between state and federal law, in general, the federal law supersedes the state law. The Supremacy Clause of the Constitution is the basis for this.
    "There is no weapon more deadly than the will." Bruce Lee

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  10. #10
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Brad S.'s Avatar
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    Amen KaliGman,

    I would be lying if I said I didnt want a Smallfly, but I also have decided stand behind the law and support it. Which Is why wont buy one, ever, unless I can get it legaly. I'll stand with you KaliGman.
    Brad Southard

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  11. #11
    Spyderco Forum Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaliGman View Post
    Starling,

    If there is a major conflict between state and federal law, in general, the federal law supersedes the state law. The Supremacy Clause of the Constitution is the basis for this.
    Unfortunately true, although that didn't come about until the 1800's under Marshall and was counter to original intent (see 10th Amendment). We need a little less fed and a little more state right about now.

  12. #12
    Spyderco Forum Registered User
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    Thanx much KGM.

    Think twice, type once.

    sal

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    The first thing that really comes to mind is if Benchmade can sell the bm40 tr to Canadians why can't Spyderco sell the trainer. There could be numersous variables, but that is the first thing to come across my mind. Not a very huge or imporatant issue, but I'm just curious.


    Secondly why even have this section on the forum, because It really isn't needed imo. Many of us aren't allowed to own the automatics or balisongs and those that can are Law Enforcement and Military and I doubt many of them will be discussing thiese knives over here.

    Just remove the section all together, because It clearly would not be beneficial. It will also help Kristi since she wouldn't have to police this one section more than the others.

    take care
    aj

    P.S one last question when an individual stops being in the Military or a LEO do these knives become Illegal to own or are they grandfathered in.
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  14. #14
    Spyderco Forum Registered User KaliGman's Avatar
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    Autos


    The first thing that really comes to mind is if Benchmade can sell the bm40 tr to Canadians why can't Spyderco sell the trainer. There could be numersous variables, but that is the first thing to come across my mind. Not a very huge or imporatant issue, but I'm just curious.


    Secondly why even have this section on the forum, because It really isn't needed imo. Many of us aren't allowed to own the automatics or balisongs and those that can are Law Enforcement and Military and I doubt many of them will be discussing thiese knives over here.

    Just remove the section all together, because It clearly would not be beneficial. It will also help Kristi since she wouldn't have to police this one section more than the others.

    aj

    P.S one last question when an individual stops being in the Military or a LEO do these knives become Illegal to own or are they grandfathered in.
    AJ,

    Spyderco can sell in international commerce just not interstate commerce (between states in the United States). As long as it is legal to sell automatics and balisongs within a nation outside the U.S., Spyderco should have no problems. As for Canada, although I have conversed with a few Canadian LEOs, I have not researched Canadian law (I have never worked co-operative cases in Canada like I have in some other nations), so I am not sure what Canadian law states on this matter. If it is legal to sell, then Benchmade, Spyderco, and other American companies could sell there.

    As for Benchmade in general, they operate out of the 9th Circuit, District of Oregon. So far as I know, no one in that district has yet seen fit to start an investigation into their business practices, and I am unsure as to whether the "balisong as auto" definition would stand up in courts in that district. An investigation could be coming--the operative word in the previous sentence was "yet." In reality, a lot of companies, manufacturers, distributors, and retailers, are skating on thin ice in regard to the automatic knife issue. In most instances, investigators seem to have had other violations and investigations to occupy them. Will this continue? Maybe, but an investigation and prosecution could be initiated.

    As for this section of the forum, you would have to ask Sal and Kristi. If it was my company, I honestly wouldn't bother with making autos and flys in the first place. Spyderco makes them because many of their LEO and military customers want them, and the company is willing to jump through the bureaucratic minefield which must be navigated in order to produce and sell these knives. A lot of bother to satisfy the customer--but that is a Spyderco trademark. My conjecture on having this part of the forum is that Spyderco had the choice of completely censoring everything to do with these knives, which I don't think fits in with Sal's idea of what he wants his company to stand for, or to open a forum section where all the chatter (including that of those illegally in possession of auto or balisong knives) is grouped in one place. Having everything here allows Kristi to try to monitor what is going on and allows all of the information on these knives to be grouped together for retrieval and distribution to investigating law enforcement officers, should another investigation ensue and turning over information on this forum become necessary.

    As far as owning the knife when you retire or leave public service, that is an interesting question. The general consensus seems to be that if you were legally allowed to own the thing, it is now your property and will remain so when you retire or leave the military or law enforcement. This is subject to interpretation. In general, though, I don't see a whole lot of effort being put forth in trying to take these things away from a bunch of suddenly pi%$ed off retired cops and soldiers You never know, though. During the "high capacity magazine" ban years I was told that all of my high capacity magazines, personally owned or not, would have to be turned in if and when I left my organization. Since I had conflicting information from other officials I questioned this and it went round and round. Since the ban no longer exists (no nationwide federal ban, but some state level bans exist), the point became moot.

    Take care
    Last edited by KaliGman; 05-07-2008 at 10:05 AM.
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    Spyderco Forum Registered User JBE's Avatar
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    With this discussion about autos coming out maybe someone can finally answer this question for me...

    As I understand, it's completely legal to buy/own one of these types of knives if your Law Enforcement or Military...

    So what about the rest of us Public Safety personnel...For instance, myself, and those in the fire service?

    I've been told that by being in the profession that I'm in, that it's ok for me to purchase and own autos. Others have told me different. I've never been able to secure a "definitive" answer on this. Personally, I've never tried to purchase an auto before and put my "credentials" to the test so to speak.
    Jason

  16. #16
    Spyderco Forum Registered User The Deacon's Avatar
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    Thanks KaliGman.

    What makes this, especially the part related to balisongs, so difficult for me, and I would imagine for at least some others here as well, to comprehend is the obvious double standard. As an example, except for New York City, balisongs made by other companies are sold openly and, I have always assumed legally, to anyone 18 or older in New York State. Most reputable internet merchants will not ship an automatic to a New York address without some proof the buyer is legally qualified but I have yet to find even one site with a similar requirement for the purchase of a balisong.

    So it's a bit hard to understand why there should be one set of rules for a balisong manufactured in Colorado, and what certainly appears to be a totally different set for ones made in Oregon, Ohio, or elsewhere in the USA due to different interpretations of a FEDERAL law by FEDERAL officals.

    There's also the almost amusing fact that the only exemptions noted in Title 15 Chapter 29 of the US Code are a full exemption for the Armed Forces as an entity, a qualified exemption for military personnel "acting in the performance of their duty", and a qualified exception (blade three inches or less in length) for one-armed private citizens. It does not seem to offer any exemption for law enforcement agencies or their employees at any level, including Federal.
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  17. #17
    Spyderco Forum Registered User KaliGman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBE View Post
    With this discussion about autos coming out maybe someone can finally answer this question for me...

    As I understand, it's completely legal to buy/own one of these types of knives if your Law Enforcement or Military...

    So what about the rest of us Public Safety personnel...For instance, myself, and those in the fire service?

    I've been told that by being in the profession that I'm in, that it's ok for me to purchase and own autos. Others have told me different. I've never been able to secure a "definitive" answer on this. Personally, I've never tried to purchase an auto before and put my "credentials" to the test so to speak.
    Unfortunately, I can't give you a definitive answer either. It depends on interpretation. As I stated in the first post in this thread and the Deacon reiterated, interpretation within federal Circuits and Districts drives some of this. The "law enforcement" exemption is from some legislative action, establishment of enforcement guidelines, and some case law. In many instances, the exemption is stated as "Public Safety," and you should more than qualify for this. I see firefighters and EMTs needing one handed opening knives a lot more than many federal law enforcement officers, to be honest. Interpretations vary, but I don't see many LEOs hassling a firefighter or EMT much over this. Not smart ones anyway--I make it a point to try to not tick off the guys who are going to be trying to save my butt if I get shot or otherwise hurt in the line of duty. Circuits and Districts vary. The best opinion would be from the Chief Assistant United States' Attorney in your area (but good luck on getting the opinion!). Sorry I couldn't be more help. The interpretation thing can be a royal pain, especially if, like me, you get transferred a few times and operate in different Circuits and Districts and have to "learn the new court."
    "There is no weapon more deadly than the will." Bruce Lee

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  18. #18
    Spyderco Forum Registered User bluemist's Avatar
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    bull**** is hard to interpret
    spyder spyder spyder spyder

  19. #19
    Spyderco Forum Registered User tonydahose's Avatar
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    i think i am just going to stay out of this forum after this post...i agree with AJ on this. What little knowledge/refinement...etc that sal can gather from positive posts to make his products better will be offset tremendously by a few bad ones...just my opinion. i will see you guys on the other boards.
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  20. #20
    Spyderco Forum Registered User JBE's Avatar
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    Your reply was much appreciated nonetheless. I've tried several times through different sources locally, both legal and otherwise (dealers,etc.), to get a clear,definite answer but unfortunately always come up blank. Some will say yes while others say no. Apparently my job set falls into sort of a "gray" area when it comes to autos. It's frustrating as I want to be able to legally purchase, carry and use an auto without worrying if I'm "skirting" the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by KaliGman View Post
    Unfortunately, I can't give you a definitive answer either. It depends on interpretation. As I stated in the first post in this thread and the Deacon reiterated, interpretation within federal Circuits and Districts drives some of this. The "law enforcement" exemption is from some legislative action, establishment of enforcement guidelines, and some case law. In many instances, the exemption is stated as "Public Safety," and you should more than qualify for this. I see firefighters and EMTs needing one handed opening knives a lot more than many federal law enforcement officers, to be honest. Interpretations vary, but I don't see many LEOs hassling a firefighter or EMT much over this. Not smart ones anyway--I make it a point to try to not tick off the guys who are going to be trying to save my butt if I get shot or otherwise hurt in the line of duty. Circuits and Districts vary. The best opinion would be from the Chief Assistant United States' Attorney in your area (but good luck on getting the opinion!). Sorry I couldn't be more help. The interpretation thing can be a royal pain, especially if, like me, you get transferred a few times and operate in different Circuits and Districts and have to "learn the new court."
    Jason

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