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Thread: NYS Politician Introduced a Police Shoot to Wound Bill

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    Dr. Snubnose's Avatar
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    NYS Politician Introduced a Police Shoot to Wound Bill

    The introduced bill has already been pulled but the details where interesting, one wonders what will be next.....Doc

    Recently, national media reported that a New York state senator had introduced legislation that would force police officers using deadly force to try to shoot violent suspects in the arms or legs to stop them.

    His proposed law would have required that officers stop firing at an attacker as soon as a threat is neutralized, or face felony charges of second-degree manslaughter.

    In an explanatory memorandum accompanying his shoot-to-wound bill, Sen. David Paterson, a Democrat and anti-capital punishment advocate from Harlem, states: "There is no justification for terminating another's life when a less extreme measure may accomplish the same objective."

    Shortly after word of the proposed legislation hit law enforcement circles and the full ramifications of the proposal were understood, John Grebert, executive director of the NYS Association of Chiefs of Police, met with the Senator, who decided to pull the bill. That decision came 5 years after the bill was first introduced.

    This situation had some wondering if mandatory shooting to wound is going to be the next "cause" taken up by civil rights activists in other states as well?

    Paterson, the state senate's minority leader, said he proposed the legislation in response to the acquittal of 4 NYPD officers charged criminally in the 1999 shooting death of Amadou Diallo. Diallo was gunned down in a fusillade of 41 rounds. Nineteen bullets struck Diallo when he was challenged by police in the high-crime Bronx area and reached for what officers thought was a weapon but turned out to be his wallet.

    Shooting just to wound a suspect as an initial response to perceived threats would "safeguard the public," Paterson said.
    His bill, which was co-sponsored by 6 other senators, would have required that officers use deadly force "with the intent to stop, rather than kill," a subject who is believed to be "using unlawful force." The officer should use "only the minimum amount of force necessary" to stop the suspect's flight or resistance, the bill specified.

    In his supportive memorandum, Peterson explained that "an officer would have to try to shoot a suspect in the arm or the leg….Further, the number of times an officer shoots a person should not exceed the minimal number necessary to stop the person. If one shot accomplishes the purpose, it is neither necessary nor appropriate for an officer to empty his barrel. The bill is intended to limit the use of force to the minimal amount needed."

    Paterson has tried before--unsuccessfully--to get such legislation enacted. He's currently running for lieutenant governor on a ticket with gubernatorial candidate Eliot Spitzer, NY's attorney general, who was said not to favor the proposed legislation.
    Neither did NY-based police associations, to put it mildly. Outraged police spokesmen described Paterson's bill variously as "lunacy," "very ill-conceived" and dangerous to the lives of officers and innocent civilians.

    Dr. Bill Lewinski, executive director of the Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University-Mankato, concured. "Senator Paterson does not understand any of the issues of performance psychology and performance skill," he says bluntly. "He apparently has been trained by TV to think that officers have lots of time and are able to do amazing things when they are confronted with life-threatening dangers.

    "In reality, most deadly encounters unfold very rapidly and very dramatically. Shooting to wound is rarely an option. Given the training most officers have, they are lucky to put bullets into center mass without trying to hit limbs that can be moved faster and more radically than larger parts of the body. Paterson's proposal is almost beyond commentary."

    Although Sen. Paterson withdrew his bill, the sentiment behind it seems to remain firmly embedded in many civilian psyches.
    "When I encounter civilian response to officer-involved shootings, it's very often 'Why didn't they just shoot him in the leg?'" says Lewinski. "When civilians judge police shooting deaths--on juries, on review boards, in the media, in the community--this same argument is often brought forward. Shooting to wound is naively regarded as a reasonable means of stopping dangerous behavior. "In reality, this thinking is a result of 'training by Hollywood,' in which movie and TV cops are able to do anything to control the outcomes of events that serves the director's dramatic interests. It reflects a misconception of real-life dynamics and ends up imposing unrealistic expectations of skill on real-life officers."
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    Th232's Avatar
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    Umm... that's utter BS. To the politicians suggesting this in the first place, try shooting a (probably) fast moving object that isn't really that big, when your life might be in danger.

    "Well, I tried to hit his arm, but it was right in front of his chest, so I guess I missed. Whoops.".
    Will

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    See what happens when nobody grows up playing Cowboys and Indians or Cops and Robbers. Not to mention not growing up shooting firearms. Fantasy land takes over.
    Follow the mushin, but pay it no heed.

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    Thumbs down

    This is how a dictatorship starts. First, they take you your weapons (for your own protection, what do you think) . Then they favor the criminals. They leave a police force to intefere when the abovementioned criminals push their limits, otherwise they are free to show the taxpayers what will they get if they don't stay in line. God Bless America, Farewell America...
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Snubnose
    "NYS politician introduced a police shoot to wound Bill"
    Who the heck is Bill, anyway?
    The mind commands the body and it obeys. The mind orders itself and meets resistance.

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    Th232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dialex
    Who the heck is Bill, anyway?
    Why haven't you heard? Bill Posters of course, the one who they always say is going to be prosecuted. He's a slippery one, he is.
    Will

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    Dr. Snubnose's Avatar
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    No I think you are confusing him with Bill Collectors..... Doc
    "Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"

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    The idiocy of our elected officials and the naiveity of the general public
    never ceases to amaze me. It is truly a damned shame that stupidity doesn't
    hurt. Bigk6

    (By the way, nice website Doc. Good to see it here.)
    Last edited by bigkahunasix; 05-21-2007 at 10:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigkahunasix
    It is truly a damned shame that stupidity doesn't
    hurt.
    You know, stupidity USED to hurt. Go back a hundred or a thousand years, and stupid people had difficulty surviving. Our 'enlightened' society believes that social darwinism is evil and must be reversed, and we must do whatever it takes to make sure even the most inept people live a pleasant life and have opportunities to breed. It shouldn't take too long to see the results of inverse-darwinism ('survival of the unfit,' which in modern times is 'survival of the stupidest'), but then what?
    Congratulations—your brainwashing is complete!
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    or...

    ...Bill Melater, Bill Ofrights...fun how this can be taken to its illogical extreme
    Last edited by Agent Starling; 05-23-2007 at 11:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dialex
    Who the heck is Bill, anyway?
    That's what I thought first.

    Then I said to myself: they are bringing a case of an officer being shot to weaken a 'Right to carry' bill.

    THEN I reread the title ahh a "shoot-to-wound" bill.

    I need more cofee.

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    Angry

    Shoot to wound??!! That is one of the most asinine things I have ever heard!!!

    Next they are going to have the Police offering cookies and milk to criminals, to get them to stop their illegal behavior.

    <------wanders off grumbling.
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    tap is offline Spyderco Forum Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Snubnose
    His bill, which was co-sponsored by 6 other senators, would have required that officers use deadly force "with the intent to stop, rather than kill," a subject who is believed to be "using unlawful force."
    ."
    So the officers would be "required" to use deadly force, but try not to kill anybody. This is an oxyPaterson. Checking spelling. Yep, the dictionary says it can be spelled oxyPaterson or oxymoron.
    Last edited by tap; 05-21-2007 at 09:05 PM.

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    Well it just goes to show that the stereotype of my home states politicians being a bunch of Atheist, Bolshevik, soft on crime Pornographers.....is true . Yeah that's the solution, when you're defending your life, just take the extra time to aim to wing em, classic liberal BS. May the Gods help us all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tap
    So the officers would be "required" to use deadly force, but try not not to kill anybody. This is an oxyPaterson. Checking spelling. Yep, the dictionary says it can be spelled oxyPaterson or oxymoron.
    Just like "Jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence"

    This really does sound silly.

    It reminds me of a story somebody told me recently. A bunch of hunters (well experienced and professionally led) were leading a pack mule out of the forest carrying their trophy kill, when they spotted a grizly bear watching their group. The bear attacked trying to get the easy meal, and the hunters were forced to defend themselves with their rifles. After all was done, all the hunters were safe, but the investigators found 14 empty rifle casings on the ground, but only two shots hit and killed the bear. Remember, they were seasoned hunters and had a professional guide who knew what to do in case of bear attack.

    Now compound this with the facts that most cops will be using pistols (much more difficult to be accurate with), and that they might not have as much experience firing their firearms at a dangerous person (or animal).
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    cjgrad23 is offline Spyderco Forum Registered User
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    You know, I am not a police officer, but have shot Glocks with the NY trigger before. Frankly, I think a CM hit would be fortunate, much less a moving leg. What's next, arming officers with slingshots (oh ...yeh, already been done...oops).

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    IMO we should arm the police even more and just let them do their jobs...there's far too much crime everywhere, even in so-called "good neighborhoods".

    Starling
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    I like the idea...

    I like the idea of this bill but I think that they should have taken it one step further. Rather than a shoot to injure policy, why not shoot to disarm policy. I have watched a lot of classic western movies and it seem like it is pretty easy to shoot the gun out of an attacker's hand. If I remember correctly, it only takes about one shot.
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    I wonder if the senator thinks that shooting someone in the arm or leg is somehow a guarantee that they won't die from the wound. What if a cop shoots at a suspect's leg, the bullet hits the femoral artery and the supect bleeds out in a matter of minutes? Would the prosecutors have to tell the cop "You did what the new law says but you hit the wrong part of the leg, you're now being charged with manslaughter."

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    I don't think i've ever seen a target range showing the entire body, usually just the head and body. Maybe they should require that they shoot all the attackers in the face. about as hard to hit, and it's usually a kill shot...
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