non-knife people with extreme prejudice, copied from blade forum

[druid]

In Amsterdam (which used to be europes equivalent of the home of the free) in the Netherlands, country of our beloved neighbours, a guy has been arrested for carrying a simple SAK. He was on a picknick with his son.
Result: knife confiscated + court case.

He wrote a letter to Victorinox, explaining what has happened to him. Mr Elsener offered him a new knife and promised to send some top class lawyers to defend him in court.

How's that for customer service?!

And what about the Netherlands having legal shops to buy drugs, but arresting a dad who wants to prepare his son's meal with a pocket knife?

Common sense becomes a thing of the past... (or isn't it? if sheeple make up the majority, their sense becomes the common one, i guess...)

[dedguy]

I'm baffled enough by strangely enforced illogical gun/knife laws in the US. Other countries just plain freak me out when I hear about their laws.

[huugh]

Wow, Victorinox certainly deserved my respect.

That case is sick. Police would bugger about SAK while there are drunk drivers, robbers, pick pocketers and all the other stuff they should be concerned with.
But it's much easier and more comfortable to pester civilized people for nothing than possibly unsettled / dangerous drug addicts willing to rob to get money for drugs, isn't it?

BTW how many times were you endangered by someone with a knife vs someone in a car? For me it's never vs million times respectively. And even though I don't call for banning cars - it is not the tool but the person who might be "dangerous".

[dedguy]

Wow, Victorinox certainly deserved my respect.

That case is sick. Police would bugger about SAK while there are drunk drivers, robbers, pick pocketers and all the other stuff they should be concerned with.
But it's much easier and more comfortable to pester civilized people for nothing than possibly unsettled / dangerous drug addicts willing to rob to get money for drugs, isn't it?

BTW how many times were you endangered by someone with a knife vs someone in a car? For me it's never vs million times respectively. And even though I don't call for banning cars - it is not the tool but the person who might be "dangerous".

More specifically how many times as someone endangered someone with a SAK?

[The Deacon]

Find it almost amusing how easily we accept unsubstantiated stories circulating on the internet. Was really hoping one of our many Dutch members would have chimed in on this, either with an explaination of the actual circumstances, or to debunk it. If I were a betting man, my money would be on debunking.

The original post on BladeForums contains no reference to a source, so the first question (at least for me) becomes, does this pass the smell test? Considering the number of Dutch members here, the extents of their collections, the locking folders they post about carrying and using at work, I am inclined to think it does not.

While I would imagine that, in the Netherlands as here, strange things do happen, I would bet that IF the incident in question actually did occur there is a LOT more to the story. One obvious possibility would be that the arrest was the result of something well beyond the mere presence of a SAK. The other is an over-zealous police officer, I know things like that occasionally happen here, not sure if the police there are better trained or not.

[Piet.S]

You are quite right Paul, there is a bit more to it.
Amsterdam as one of our largest cities has more then its fair share of scum.
Some areas, such as the "red light district" attract junks and dealers and the like as moths to the lamp.
Combine this with more then a few happy tourists and you can expect a lot of muggings and other crap to happen.
The general public calls for zero tollerance and politicians and police brass have to come up with something.
One thing they came up with is to raid such an area, every once in a while.
Just lock it off and check everyone on drugs and weapons.
And zero being zero, a knife is a knife.
This is about the situation in which this man got trapped.

I do find this very interesting really because natianal law allows one to carry folders up to 28 cm OAL while local legislation turn you into one of the criminals if you got a Ladybug on your keychain.

Í'll try to keep you updated on this one.

[druid]

Find it almost amusing how easily we accept unsubstantiated stories circulating on the internet.

you have a very good point, and it's interesting to see where one's blind spots are. I consider myself fairly well educated, and I'm fairly skeptical about a lot of things, I studied anthropology in college and part of that discipline involves taking a number of different accounts of the same event, and trying to discern a kind of truth, or an overall reality. Ironically if I had read the story in say the Los Angeles or New York Times I would be skeptical automatically trying to discern bias, and looking for another account of the situation. But when I am fully relaxed and cruising a well-known and beloved website, or worse possibly reading a novel by an author I trust. I tend to take what they or it in the case of website says at face value. The idea that this was simply an urban legend that was repeated, never occurred to me. I just wasn't thinking about it not context at all, it just ''was''. as if my was on a brain kind of autopilot. As it was once said by the rock band sublime. once in awhile you get shown in the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

[swingshot]

.
And zero being zero, a knife is a knife.

What he said. The irony is that in Amsterdam you can walk into one of several shops and buy a Switchblade (some junk, some good quality) without any problems at all.

[Piet.S]

Anyway, the story is true, the man's girlfriend is even related to one of the members of the Belgian weapons forum.

Here's the original story as it was in the newspaper,

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/6...den_wapen.html

[Darkfin]

Ach, my dutch translation software is a bit lacking, but here is its results:

akmes family are soil weapon
by beard Olmer
AMSTERDAM - Jerome Blumberg AND small children in Amsterdam by ten one police force have been surrounded AND have been searched because he a Swiss or penknife had at itself.
Penknife family is soil weapon
for each Swiss or penknife has been taken away by the police force Amsterdam? Victorinox, the wereldberoemde Swiss more supplier of army penknives - the red officer farrowed measurers with that white kruisje - send free or charge never Uwe OI! AND ash ever for the quite bank must come because of soil weapon possession, rushes very expensive Swiss lawyers for each width Unit aid.
This is old Hans Jerome Blumberg happens, which in Amsterdam become because of soil weapon possession arrested. Dead its bewilderment become its pleased penknife confiscated by from Amsterdam strong poor during fouilleeractie. OI the buy got he also once more an intimation for 25 May COM for the quite bank or width Unit appear.
Blumberg, a French man since jaartje love Hanneke large in Amsterdam have lived together with have been, had run with of its areas from more an more earlier marriage OI the sea dike. Moored with their poor volume or picknickspulletjes wild CPU to their boat, to the Westerdok.
But ten agents stopped us. I had my pockets draw AND become exhaustively searched. Incoming goods are OI missing to weapons, said the agent. As usually Jerome carried its Swiss penknife, such a skilfully folding dingetje with more triggertrigger trigger, more tandenstoker, file AND zaagje, which such a beetje in each souvenirwinkeltje width Unit buy, at itself is.
Dead OI the moment that from Amsterdam police force ME detention-grounds knew I rivet that I arm dangerous at ME carried. The become confiscated AND I become accused because of soil weapon possession. Volume gene had sign I a character, which it in Dutch which AND I natural the established could read rivet. I refused to width Unit sign.
Bewildered schreef Blumberg a note to the Swiss company Victorinox in Ibach Schwyz, where aluminium 230 years these measure made. I lift always a knife of your OI pocket, thus writing. “Maar de Amsterdamse politie heeft afgepakt sounds ik een picknick wild houden met mijn twaalfjarige zoon. Nobody - de autoriteiten rivet EN ook u as a manufacturer rivet - heeft ons gewaarschuwd dat Zwitserse zakmessen in Amsterdam soil zijn.”
Carl Elsener wrote back van Victorinox directly: Incoming goods have been shocked how you are treated by from Amsterdam police force, whereas your only game picnics. Incoming goods will discuss the matter with our distributor in the Netherlands. Withered model knife had you? AND which that including saw AND schaartje? Incoming goods gladly by ommegaande a new copy stubborn.
AND warempel: standard 91 mm or officer knife with fourteen tools more concerning the mail office got Blumberg directly has been sent.
But with that which the suffering rivet suffered. These yielded the intimation OI thudded the mat at Blumberg. The French man directly wrote more to the Swiss factoryfactory factory. You can ME assist into this idiot question? AND hear that which no problem.
From Amsterdam police force says that Blumberg have been apprehended, because into need area (such as the sea dike) apply special rules. No grandchild knife, even rivet or the the mesjes to more hang key-ring, have been permitted there. No, incoming goods do no effort COM expatriate these prohibition rules into these or need areas from width Unit draw towards. How incoming goods that must do to each tourist? police force spokesman says Gerard Vrooland honestly. Perhaps French man recovers its zakmesje AND gets he that no punishes. But the right must make an assessment.

[Ted]

Some remarks to put things in perspective.

The guy was searched in a routine check on one of A'Dam's worst streets. (Zeedijk). The police found the SAK and stuck to their protocol (which they should). I'll bet my Victorinox Farmer that he won't get convicted. There's nothing to see here ... please move along ...

Ted

[java]

Some remarks to put things in perspective.

The guy was searched in a routine check on one of A'Dam's worst streets. (Zeedijk). The police found the SAK and stuck to their protocol (which they should). I'll bet my Victorinox Farmer that he won't get convicted. There's nothing to see here ... please move along ...

Ted

Protocol does not negate the need for common sense. You can bet all the Victorinoxs on the planet but this should hve been resolved at the lowest level possible and should have never been a story. There should never have been even a thought of "going to court" but now it appears to be news and there IS something to see here. If we all just keep moving along and turn a blind eye and deaf ear to any bad press regarding knives your everyone's rights will be diminished. This is an unforeseen aberration but it shows your protocol needs to be be revised, advertised in places where it is deemed necessary, and have some discretion built in to avoid the waste of time and money it will take for citizens and the governing bodies alike to defend themselves in frivolous abuses of authority. The bad press also undermines the government's support from the people it is sworn to protect by holding their actions up for ridicule in the local and world press.

This may seem small to some but apparently Victorinox takes it seriously enough - as they should. Good to hear it.





j

[Ted]

Protocol does not negate the need for common sense. You can bet all the Victorinoxs on the planet but this should hve been resolved at the lowest level possible and should have never been a story. There should never have been even a thought of "going to court" but now it appears to be news and there IS something to see here. If we all just keep moving along and turn a blind eye and deaf ear to any bad press regarding knives your everyone's rights will be diminished. This is an unforeseen aberration but it shows your protocol needs to be be revised, advertised in places where it is deemed necessary, and have some discretion built in to avoid the waste of time and money it will take for citizens and the governing bodies alike to defend themselves in frivolous abuses of authority. The bad press also undermines the government's support from the people it is sworn to protect by holding their actions up for ridicule in the local and world press.

This may seem small to some but apparently Victorinox takes it seriously enough - as they should. Good to hear it.


j

Java, interesting perspective, but I disagree. And, my comment, how short it was at first is not so short-sighted as it now may appear. Perhaps some day with a good cup of coffee we can discuss it face to face.

Ted

[Derkomai]

In Amsterdam there are very clear police regulations (Algemene Plaatselijke Verordening or APV):

● In de centre of the city and in a part of the city called South East (de Bijlmer), it is not allowed to carry a (pocket) knife of any sort and this is NOT a secret.
● In these two areas the police has the authority to search persons and often they have routine checks.
● It is allowed to buy (pocket) knives in Amsterdam, but if you buy one in the centre of town (the part with most knife shops like De Dump and The Old Man and numerous souvenir shops that sell SAK’s), you have to carry it with you carefully wrapped (and not ‘ATR’).

It is indeed not a very nice situation and it affects me also (I live in de Bijlmer and I go to the city centre 4 or 5 times a week, and that means I can loose my knives). Mister Blumberg says he did not know about the regulations concerning pocket knives, but that is hardly an excuse. I do not think a lot of people would go to a police station to ask about the ‘APV’ but that is not the responsibility of the police.

And yes, of course it was a sad story: 10 cops surrounding him and his little children, frisking him and confiscating his SAK, then telling him to sign a form in Dutch he did not understand (Mister Blumberg is French). Well, that is the story in De Telegraaf (a newspaper you could call the Dutch The Sun, e.g. a newspaper only good for wrapping fish. We have not forgotten the fact they collaborated with the (Dutch) Nazi’s); a paper that has journalist who think Victorinox makes knives in Ibach-Schwyz for 230 years!

It was bad luck, and sure, sometimes Amsterdam police officers can be overzealous (some time ago a man was finned in the Amsterdam subway for carrying an empty french-fry bag! But of course they reversed that), but whether you agree with a law or not, that does not matter. My wild guess is that there is no judge in Amsterdam that will convict Mister Blumberg, and I am also willing to bet Ted’s Victorinox Farmer on that.

By the way, Victorinox is one of my favourite company’s and they deserve the free publicity.

So in short I have to agree with Ted.

J.

[java]

Java, interesting perspective, but I disagree. And, my comment, how short it was at first is not so short-sighted as it now may appear. Perhaps some day with a good cup of coffee we can discuss it face to face.

Ted

I choose the coffee, Ted. I choose the coffee.......



j

[java]

It was bad luck, and sure, sometimes Amsterdam police officers can be overzealous (some time ago a man was finned in the Amsterdam subway for carrying an empty french-fry bag!.........And yes, of course it was a sad story: 10 cops surrounding him and his little children, frisking him and confiscating his SAK, then telling him to sign a form in Dutch he did not understand (Mister Blumberg is French).

That is the heart of the matter and WWII prejudices aside......it could have been handled better by the police. Police discretion has a lot to do with how effectively a procedure is implemented. Other options would be simple confiscation, temporary confiscation, and a warning citation depending on the situation. You handcuff the police with strict by the book protocols you end up with cases like you illustrate. It wastes time, money, and creates ill-will in the form of distrust and bad press. Restrictive protocols are abusive by their inflexibility - to both the police and those they've sworn to protect. Of course the judge will throw it out. It should never get that far. Give the police a little discretion and a ittle credit. Solve problems at the lowest level. Bring some common sense to the situation. This not the kind of publicity Victorinox wants nor needs.





j



I'm going to Yosemite to hike the back country. See ya on the flip side!!!

[Piet.S]

I think you are right Java, this should not have to become an issue.
The police has beter things to do then confiscating a SAK from a citizen Joe.
Lady justice is blindfolded, but in my country she is blond as well.

[zenheretic]

But when I am fully relaxed and cruising a well-known and beloved website, or worse possibly reading a novel by an author I trust. I tend to take what they or it in the case of website says at face value. .

Druid, that was your first mistake. Even great knife forums should be cruised on yellow alert, this is a war zone, yellow alert, keep your wallet in your front pocket and watch your six, yellow alert, whoop! whoop! Yellow Alert!