The C-12 Civilian>> A CLOSER LOOK

[JD Spydo]

Here is a knife that was/is incredibly ahead of it's time. The Spyderco C-12 Civilian was a genius self defense design. The C-12 Civilian has without a doubt been one of Spyderco's most enduring of designs over the years. With it being primarily designed for specialty law enforcement use it is really amazing how many collectors and various other knife afficionados gravitate toward it.

The Civilian is supposed to have one intended use and that being self defense. But one thing most collectors/afficionados overlook is the potential that this basic design could open up for the Hawkbill arena in general. We could easily potentially see another generation of Hawkbills emerge from this most classic of designs. Why even it's little sister the Matriarch is a much different knife in a lot of way simply by virtue of it's smaller, more compact size and proportion.

I do believe that the Civilian will be around for many more years to come. I will admit that this is not a knife for everyone but in this increasingly dangerous world in which we reside you need all of the defensive hardware you can get. And this is a great addition to anyone's self defense tool chest. Also this has simply got to be a Martial Arts Classic in a league all of it's own. It also amazes me when I talk to fellow collectors and when the Civilian comes up in conversation how many different opinions and cross currents I get in discussing this great knife. It's not very often that a design as unique as this takes the cutlery world by storm like this knife did>> and keeps doing. Agree or disagree I want to know your view of this super special Spyder.

[Havatoo]

I hope I don't get flamed for this but in my opinion hawkbills for SD suffer from one flaw-they don't have a usable point for thrusting. In a knife where the point is facing forward, you have a usable point and an edge, both. I like hawkbills, own a few, and even carry one at times. But it's always as a backup to a non-hawkbill knife.

[Hannibal Lecter]

My Dear Friend,

I hope I don't get flamed for this but in my opinion hawkbills for SD suffer from one flaw-they don't have a usable point for thrusting.

That is the idea.

Hawkbills are notoriously difficult to kill with in a SD situation, but the wounds they inflict will certainly inspire an attacker to cease hostilities. The whole point of SD is not to kill your assailant, but to use the minimum amount of force necessary to cause them to give up the assault.

A modified Civilian is riding in my pocket at this second, and I feel better protected with it for SD than any other blade I currently own.

--------
Hannibal

[Gerard Breuker]

Although I have been tempted once or twice I don't own one and if I did I probably wouldn't EDC it. Main reason being the fact that it is SD only and for me to be effective it would have to replace my EDC in the RFP. I have nothing against carrying a SD only knife if you can make it work but it is not for me.
I do however agree on the design and I am sure one will find its way to me oneday as a collectors item.

[Patriot]

I own a G-10 Civilian, primarily for collecting purposes, but I would definately rate the Civilian/Matriarch as the number one SD knife for a untrained, unpracticed individual.

There's is just something about the design that draws people to it. After learning a little more about Spyderco and seeing how some great models are discontinued because they fail to generate enough sales, it is quite interesting to see the Civilian still going strong.

I'm hesitant to mess w/ perfection , but ideally I'd like to see the Civilian with a slimmer folded profile and a Wave action.

-Patriot

[Ging]

a Wave action.

Thats sounds really, really scary but so cool

[Civilian]

I guess I have to weigh in here.
Let me start off by quoting someone who knows more about knives and self-defense than I. James Keating said that the Civilian is "one of the all time great personal defense knives of the century". Not only is it an absolute amazing design, but it was an incredible leap of faith for Sal and Spyderco. Spyderco had always designed knives as tools, and darn good ones I might add, but the Civilian was a weapon. No if's and's or but's about it, designed for self defense in the "gravest extreme". Though I never have used one for that stated purpose, I have practiced deploying the knife in a very rapid and controlled manner. I can even deploy it without attracting too much attention to it. For someone like me who doesn't have the time to train for self defense it is a huge piece of mind knowing that I can deploy such a weapon.
I would also suggest that if your only "contact" has been with the G-10 handeled version you should absolutely check out the Aluminum/Tufram model. The heft and grip are far superior to any other knife I own! As far as not being able to thrust with it I suggest you CAREFULLY push the back of the point of the blade against your hand. I just tried it and unless you came up against heavy denium or leather I have no doubt it would penatrate just fine. It may break off the tip but once that tip comes off the Civilian will do LARGE amounts of ripping damage to a target.
I wouldn't own 8 of somthing that didn't blow away the compeition!

[dedguy]

My Dear Friend,



That is the idea.

Hawkbills are notoriously difficult to kill with in a SD situation, but the wounds they inflict will certainly inspire an attacker to cease hostilities. The whole point of SD is not to kill your assailant, but to use the minimum amount of force necessary to cause them to give up the assault.

A modified Civilian is riding in my pocket at this second, and I feel better protected with it for SD than any other blade I currently own.

--------
Hannibal

was going to say the same thing. i always thought the purpose of the Civillian was to create a sub-leathal self defense tool designed to harm but not kill.

[JD Spydo]

Well Mr. Civilian that is a very interesting post you just hit us with. First of all I am just floored about your obervation that the really old Aluminum/Tufram handle is the one you consider to be superior in grip properties. I am such a fan of G-10 that I was just blown away by that. That Aluminum/Tufram Civilian is truly one of the very few Spydercos I have never held in my hand. I don't doubt you in the least. It just makes me really scratch my head as to why they discontinued a handle with the grip properties as you described. Because this is one model where grip is of the utmost of importance.

I am now wondering if this newer "Peel Ply" Carbon Fiber might be a move in the right direction. Something for the Great Spyder Factory to consider maybe? Or just why not try to resurrect that Aluminum Tufram handle. And Sir for you to take a Forum name after a certain Spyderco model it speaks loudly to me. I am just astounded that you would take this highly specialized model and make it your favorite. I have personally been super impressed with it since I got my first one 2 years ago. I just knew in my gut that this knife was more than a stylish, fad, martial arts type item. I also knew that it's uniqueness was only one it's many pluses.

From what I can tell this knife is due far more respect than I am seeing it receive. I got a feeling we are going to see a lot of Spyderheads come of the woodwork on this one. And yes for any knife to last this long in the line up>> and be highly specialized as it is speaks volumes and demands respect throughout the cutlery world. I know there is more for us to hear so bring it on. There are a lot of Civilian lovers here on this Forum so let's hear more !!!!!???

[JD Spydo]

was going to say the same thing. i always thought the purpose of the Civillian was to create a sub-leathal self defense tool designed to harm but not kill.

I see where you are coming from and I get the jest of what you are saying "Dedguy" but think about this for a moment. IF anyone that gets wacked 3 to 5 times with a Civi by a scared, determined person in a serious, self defense mode you just know the damage is going to be severe enough to thwart even the toughest of hoodlum.

If a guy gets 2 or more arteries severed then you don't even need stabbing power. The amount of blood one could lose in such a short period of time would be terribly life threatening.

And Doctor Lecter reiterates the biggest point of all that I have heard discussed many times about the Civi is the fact that few other knives have the power to immobilize to the degree that the Civilian can do.

[Michael Cook]

Doubt the awesome stopping power of the mighty civilian? Take a roast and give it a whack with a civvie, just an easy swipe, no ninja turtle battle frenzy necessary. Now look at the cut and think of that as a wound channel across the bicep tricep or quadricep. Such a cut would be a fight ender.

[JD Spydo]

Doubt the awesome stopping power of the mighty civilian? Take a roast and give it a whack with a civvie, just an easy swipe, no ninja turtle battle frenzy necessary. Now look at the cut and think of that as a wound channel across the bicep tricep or quadricep. Such a cut would be a fight ender.

You put that so very succinctly Michael. But few words are really needed to get that point across . But let's not forget the Matriarch either. I am also wondering if they would come out with a Civi the size of the Matriarch with a G-10 handle with a significantly thicker blade. I bet that would be a super utility knife. OH and use D-2 for the blade

[zenheretic]

My guess the move away from aluminum handles/inserts was due to customer complaints about wear and tear on said insert. After carrying a Stretch for some time, either the glue has improved or those complaints were unfounded.

I would like to see the spyder hole widened a few mm. I realize the entire blade would have to be widened as well so it might not be feasible. Most people seem to find a larger diameter easier to open. It only makes sense that the pure weapon form of the Civilian would be easy to open for a scared poopless person, fighting for his/her life.

Why are virtually all spydercos either "way ahead of their time" or "totally misunderstood" in JD's spyder mind?

[JD Spydo]

It's very easy and rational to understand ZEN Because a lot of Spyders are indeed ahead of their time. And there are quite a few that are misunderstood. I can name several of them right off the top of my head. And when I do make that observation about certain Spyderco blades you don't see too many people taking issue with me on it.

That's because the truth stands on it on foundation That's the reason most of us have gravitated toward collecting these great knives. That's why most of us aren't collecting CASE knives>>> They aren't your father's Buck knife Sir Or was that Oldsmobile ??? I think the valid responses from the other brothers on this thread do indeed give much credibility to that . Plus I don't seem to be lacking Forumites agreeing with me that the Civilian is a most unique and time tested flagship knife of this great company

It seems rather interesting though that you seem to always respond to these questionable threads of mine ZEN in spite of your apparent doubt, disbelief & skepticism to such observations I rest my case We're all learning and enjoying what we are learning Gee is this another episode of "Point/Counterpoint"

[JD Spydo]

ZEn I know what you are talking about with those Kraton inserts. One big problem I always had with Kraton and other inserts was not only the fact that they come out or get dislodged> But I have had Kraton get kind of gummy on me after only using a certain knife for even a short period of time.

Maybe Spyderco has remedied that problem with the STRETCH. Because I haven't heard of anyone complaining about that model at all. I know that is Deacon's favorite or one of his very favorites. The knife never did appeal to me although I do think it is a quality knife and is deserving of the Spyderco label.

I never had any experience with the Tufram handle but if Civilian thinks it's great well I have to take notice because I know that guy knows his blades. But then again maybe they have vastly improved rubberized inserts in some of these newer models. But G-10 always seems good and grippy to me. Can't wait to see what other improvements that they are going to make with this new "Peel Ply" Carbon Fiber. I think that stuff is going to be great as they introduce it more and more.

[zenheretic]

Folks don't always react in type to your political statements but that doesn't mean they agree with them Same goes for your knife points.

back to business:
Gummy handles? By gummy, do you mean sticky? If so, that would seem desirable to a SD knife handle...especially when splashed with the inevitable fluids encountered in its use. I can see where any sort of gummy would be annoying on a work knife, however. Until someone "in the know" chimies in we can only speculate on the change. G-10 is certainly more durable than the inserts so that is certainly an imporvement.

Any thoughts on the hole diameter?

[dete]

when I look at a blade,

you can stab even with a flat head screw driver no problem.
hurts like crazy.

next is slicing. ability to cut, but people forget that a tip can do that.
get a dart and slash it against your wall, it can cut.

look at various hawkbill blades, if the curve is so great that the
point is behind the curve, then yes this is difficult to stab.

The Civilian... the point is after the curve, draw a square, a square
will have 2 points on one side, eliminate one, and you basically have
a tanto, the civilian can pierce just fine according to my own logic.

especially flesh!
Solid wood or hard objects would not be good,
but a soft uneven surface...

[dete]

however, I do not like the idea that the tip can break off,

I wish the civilian had a circular solid steel tube across the spine of the blade
for support that also makes it easier to claw in to begin the reaping.

I'd call this feature "The Vertebrae"

[Zac]

I hope I don't get flamed for this but in my opinion hawkbills for SD suffer from one flaw-they don't have a usable point for thrusting. In a knife where the point is facing forward, you have a usable point and an edge, both. I like hawkbills, own a few, and even carry one at times. But it's always as a backup to a non-hawkbill knife.

Control cuts are at the heart of the Civilian design. The design countours to the human body and allows effective blocking, and very effective trapping due to the blade design. As you move on skin, the knife automaticaly cuts deeper. You can use a Civilian for a straight entry puncture wound but must enter on a different angle. Hawkbills, the Civilian specefically, allows control over an opponent than a straight knife sumply does not permit.

[Zac]

Now let me make the least political post of all time. The Civilian is by far my favorite knife and it rides in my right pocket, prettymuch 24-7.

Spyderco designed a practical, tactical folder that can be used to do a lot of damage with those of little to no training, and a boat load of damage for those with extensive training. It is also very small for a knife of such power. As far as being lethal, the Civilian is as lethal as you want it to be. There are about 25 different points to single out which the Civilian excelts in cutting in, and about 5 will cause almost instant paralysis/death. It will stop even the most posessed of attackers, even those on PCP as this knife will immobilize.

The blade operates on 2 plains making it easier to cut yourself and even easier to cut your opponent, even through leather or First Down puffy jackets. The blade countours to the human body perfectly. In a time when everyone is filled with politically correct bs, this knife told the media to blank off, and that it can save lives as knives can be very effective weapons. They even gave it a politically correct name. I like the name as this is a defensive knife only and makes a horrible offensive knife. This knife is never used for crime.

If someone goes to push a knife at you or another object, it has the ability to pull that offensive hand to the side...the serations will make their arm move wherever you desire without much force required. To combat a move, you can enter, turn 45 degrees, and fully tear ligaments and tendons making body parts useless. If need be, you can take an eye socket, and hook into the bone which will support the weight of the entire human body and is a great target to throw. This all equates to full control and is the main design of this knife.

Control is an important word and worth its own paragraph. Unlike other knives which may need multiple stabs to immobilize an attacker, a single move with a Civilian will end a conflict. A quarter inch in the lower belly spills all of the contents. A slash across the chest equates to massive blood loss, a long drag on an arm or leg creates an immense amount of pain, someone who tries to bite can have a tongue removed which means very fast and massive blood loss, and the throat is always vulnerable and that S curve is perfect for a slit. Any move with this knife will either 1) ward of an attacker 2) wound them so you have full control over them 3) exterminate them. This knife is not the means to an end, it is the means to THE END.

The hole comes down to preference. There are about 7-10 ways to open this knife. I either use the hole, downward hammer throw, and when in a self defense situation, a quick 2 part move that goes to the side and then up, violently releasing the blade which is very intimidating.

Intimidation is another feature of the knife. It's big, shiny, curved, serated, sharp and easy to manipulate. In situations where I have had knives pulled on me, this knife has been enough to send other 'tough guys' running. Thugs arent totally stupid.

Lets talk about the often criticized tip strength and the G10. I was working alone and had a guy come up behind me who was strong as hell and at least twice my size wrap his right arm around my neck. He was definately strong enough to break it. Everything turned to slow motoion and I casually grabbed the Civilian, entered near his wrist and drug it up his entire forearm, chipping bone the entire way. He instantly let go and ran as I went to go for his upper left forearm (he was already running). There were screams I have never heard before and never want to hear again. The tip was fine and the G10 handle still offered great grip when bloody. Put vegetable oil on the handle to mimic blood in the extreme.

The bottom line...a knowledgable user of this knife can use it effectively when it comes to self defense against virtually any other weapon not by means of brut strength but by controlled cuts and 'pecks'. Spyderco was ahead of its time, and still is, as few companies offer good, reliable, self defense weapons that are practical for EDC. If the knife endures 15 years of production, they are doing something right. Tell me how many other knives live that long without any major change. If I had to make one change to the knife, it would be an indentation near the butt of the knife for a quick hammer to reverse hammer grip maneuver I do...if I could videotape it, Civilian users would see how important this move can be.

My 2 cents.