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Thread: VG-10 vs CPMS30V

  1. #1
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Crafft's Avatar
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    VG-10 vs CPMS30V

    Today a used a Native pe (CPMS30V) and a Scorpius pe (VG-10).

    I had those with me on our familytrip to the woods this morning. Did some whittling with the Scorpius pe and the pe Native and guess what? The Scorpius was still shaving sharp after our trip whilst the Native was somewhat dull after the whittling we did

    Both knives were shaving sharp to begin with and were used on the same maple branch. The Native having a 40 degr. edge and the Scorpius a 30 degr.

    I'm confused to say the least

  2. #2
    David Lowry
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    Well, I hate to say this (almost) but I think that VG-10 is kinda better than S30V. That's just me, but I've had the same experience.

    VG-10 seems to hold an edge longer and is easier to sharpen.

    My all time favorite is ATS-55 however.

    Don't be confused. VG-10 is the stuff bro.

  3. #3
    Spyderco Forum Registered User smcfalls13's Avatar
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    I prefer VG-10 to all other steels. S30V is a distant second choice, and then only because of the Dodo. I love my Dodo so much tolerate the hard to sharpen S30V.

    Of course, I'm a moron when it comes to sharpening, and VG-10 is much easier for me, so that could explain my slight bias
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Outlaw's Avatar
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    Gee....I thought CPMS30V was supposed to hold an edge longer

    I said it before, I'll say it again,

    Ya gotta love that VG-10!

  5. #5
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    +1 for vg-10, easy to sharpen and keep a good edge. its my benchmark for knife steels.

  6. #6
    Spyderco Forum Registered User vampyrewolf's Avatar
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    ats-55
    polish it up and just TRY to dull it... I use my 'fly constantly, and haven't managed to kill the edge I put on in febuary. Still bites if I run my thumb down the edge. FLAT grind edge, zero bevel... sandpaper and boredom.

    s30v is nice if you want something that will stay "sharp" for a long time, but it doesn't keep a shaving edge for long under use. it'll keep a working edge a LONG time though. I have a 30deg edge, polished to 1200 SiC and then hit with a 800grit AO at 40deg. My lil temp still pops hair after about 2 months of use on this edge.

    vg-10 seems 'soft' compared to ats-55. it sharpens easy but doesn't seem to stay sharp as long as ats-55. Gets a whole lot sharper to start with though.

    Don't mind the "8 etc" steel in my pelican. Acts somewhere between aus 8 and 440c in my informal testing. Takes a decent edge, and lasts through a day of cutting 1/4" poly rope... simple stropping was all I needed for another day of it.
    Last edited by vampyrewolf; 10-15-2005 at 03:29 PM.
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  7. #7
    Spyderco Forum Registered User i.v's Avatar
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    how long have you had your native? i have a native SE, it used to get dull rather quickly at first but the more i sharpened the better it got.
    right now it's been 3 months since i last sharpened it, i use it almost daily & it's still shaving sharp.
    my VG10 seems to dull just below shaving point & stay there forever

  8. #8
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    Both good steels (Usual wordy explanation)

    VG10 is a very good steel. It behaves somewhat like high carbon non stainless. You can restore the edge with steeling or stropping. It sharpens easily and is fine grained and will get wickedly sharp. My EDC Persian proved to be the sharpest knife at the SHOT show. I had tuned the knife on the sharpmaker, and was tested on CATRA's new sharpness machine.

    S30V and H1 gain strength and hardness from Nitrogen. I think I have an understandable explanation from a lay-metallurgists point of view. At the crystaline level steel, is a cube with 8 iron corners and a Carbon atom in the middle in the interterstal space inside the iron cube. The Carbon holds onto 3 of the iron atoms of the 8 but in such a confiration that it forms the cube of steel. Introduce Nitrogen into the cube in the interterstal space by the Carbon, the Nitrogen will bond with 4 of the iron atoms and initially be the same iron atoms that the Carbon is holding. As this material is worked these Nitrogen iron bonds shift to the iron atoms that had no bond and were in the low energy state of a cube. The material basically changes from Fe4CN to Fe5CN to Fe6CN to Fe7CN. Each of these stages is progressively harder and stronger. Fe7CN is technically a ferro-nitride a ceramic. As you own and use S30V and H-1 this process is on going. This is particularly the case with H-1 and to a lesser degree S30V. I think it is pretty cool that after you buy a knife of this material that it will improve, especially for the stuff you do with it. DISCLAIMER: I'm not a metallurgist, this information is from my research and validated by my experiences. I have been experimenting the last year or so with Nitrided,Carbonized powder Damascus. This material is very interesting...Ed

  9. #9
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Piet.S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampyrewolf
    ats-55
    vg-10 seems 'soft' compared to ats-55. it sharpens easy but doesn't seem to stay sharp as long as ats-55. Gets a whole lot sharper to start with though.


    Agree with you VW.

  10. #10
    Spyderco Forum Registered User chux's Avatar
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    I've never had any trouble with S30v; holds a good edge well and even little accidents (dropping on concrete etc) have done no damage. It does seem to corrode a bit more easily than VG-10 but is not problematic.

    Nearly every VG-10 blade I have used, or that my friends have used, has had edge chipping during normal use, or at not abuse, (in one case a section of serrations cracked out completely). A Native III that was dropped (not by me in this case ) on to a hard surface lost a good 3mm from the tip and was a nightmare to grind back. The edge holding does appear to be good when it doesn't chip. I avoid VG-10 now .

    ATS-55 I like very much too, holds a great edge for ages and is very easy to sharpen. I had heard of some people losing teeth from serrated blades but not actually encountered any problem myself.
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    Thumbs up Oldie but goodie

    Well so far I am going to have to agree with Vampyrewolf and David Lowry with their assessment of ATS-55 . My main EDC is the C-44 P&S big Dyad. Which of course has ATS-55 blades. I really like ATS-55 for overall performance because I really put a blade to hard use throughout the day. But with that being said I can't see in a way why there is so much disagreement here. Because ZDP-189 is truly the one that has stolen my heart here of late.

    My Calypso Jr. ( Burgundy) with ZDP-189 is truly a "cutting marvel". S30V & VG-10 are both very high quality blade steels but if we are going to have a critical analysis of blade steels I think it would be only fitting to put ZDP-189 in the test as well. I personally think that D-2 ought to be put up against some of these newer, exotic blade steels we are raving about.
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  12. #12
    Spyderco Forum Registered User greencobra's Avatar
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    Of everything I own, I only have experience using and sharpening VG-10 & H-1. I'll agree the 10 is quick to bring back but needs touch ups often and I find it difficult to sharpen the H-1 to where I want it, but it seems to last longer. Both are used the same way, just everyday chores.

  13. #13
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    Crafft,

    It may also be the geometry coming into play. Yeah, a 40 degree edge is only 5 degrees extra per side than a 30 degree edge, but that's 33 and 1/3 percent t h i c k e r. If both edges degrade equally, the extra force needed to cut will be seen in the thicker one first.
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  14. #14
    Spyderco Forum Registered User WORKER#9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD Spydo
    Well so far I am going to have to agree with Vampyrewolf and David Lowry with their assessment of ATS-55 . My main EDC is the C-44 P&S big Dyad. Which of course has ATS-55 blades. I really like ATS-55 for overall performance because I really put a blade to hard use throughout the day. But with that being said I can't see in a way why there is so much disagreement here. Because ZDP-189 is truly the one that has stolen my heart here of late.

    My Calypso Jr. ( Burgundy) with ZDP-189 is truly a "cutting marvel". S30V & VG-10 are both very high quality blade steels but if we are going to have a critical analysis of blade steels I think it would be only fitting to put ZDP-189 in the test as well. I personally think that D-2 ought to be put up against some of these newer, exotic blade steels we are raving about.
    I am with you JD the ZDP has stolen my heart also, this steel is unbelievable!!!!! Still love the S30v, good stuff, and VG-10 does get wicked sharp. worker

  15. #15
    Spyderco Forum Registered User WORKER#9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Schempp
    VG10 is a very good steel. It behaves somewhat like high carbon non stainless. You can restore the edge with steeling or stropping. It sharpens easily and is fine grained and will get wickedly sharp. My EDC Persian proved to be the sharpest knife at the SHOT show. I had tuned the knife on the sharpmaker, and was tested on CATRA's new sharpness machine.

    S30V and H1 gain strength and hardness from Nitrogen. I think I have an understandable explanation from a lay-metallurgists point of view. At the crystaline level steel, is a cube with 8 iron corners and a Carbon atom in the middle in the interterstal space inside the iron cube. The Carbon holds onto 3 of the iron atoms of the 8 but in such a confiration that it forms the cube of steel. Introduce Nitrogen into the cube in the interterstal space by the Carbon, the Nitrogen will bond with 4 of the iron atoms and initially be the same iron atoms that the Carbon is holding. As this material is worked these Nitrogen iron bonds shift to the iron atoms that had no bond and were in the low energy state of a cube. The material basically changes from Fe4CN to Fe5CN to Fe6CN to Fe7CN. Each of these stages is progressively harder and stronger. Fe7CN is technically a ferro-nitride a ceramic. As you own and use S30V and H-1 this process is on going. This is particularly the case with H-1 and to a lesser degree S30V. I think it is pretty cool that after you buy a knife of this material that it will improve, especially for the stuff you do with it. DISCLAIMER: I'm not a metallurgist, this information is from my research and validated by my experiences. I have been experimenting the last year or so with Nitrided,Carbonized powder Damascus. This material is very interesting...Ed
    Ed thanks I have read that last paragragh 5x and I am still thinking about it! worker

  16. #16
    Spyderco Forum Registered User skcusloa's Avatar
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    Ed: That's amazing that you had the sharpest knife at a knife SHOW. Could you explain how the machine works, like what do you physically do with the knife and the machine?

    *starts sharpening already scary sharp knives*

  17. #17
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Crafft's Avatar
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  18. #18
    Spyderco Forum Registered User skcusloa's Avatar
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    Thanks Crafft, that machine is interesting. I was surprised that paper loaded with silica is the standard medium used when testing sharpness.

  19. #19
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Carlos's Avatar
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    I found that VG-10 would pick up spots of rust from time to time. I've had no corrosion with S30V.

    VG-10 takes that very fine razor-type edge and push-cuts beautifully.

    S30V seems to have a grabbier edge. More "toothy." Push cuts and draw cuts nicely.

    OT: ZDP-189 seems to prefer a draw cut. Still early to tell.
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  20. #20
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    Lightbulb Grabbier versus razor smooth

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos
    I found that VG-10 would pick up spots of rust from time to time. I've had no corrosion with S30V.

    VG-10 takes that very fine razor-type edge and push-cuts beautifully.

    S30V seems to have a grabbier edge. More "toothy." Push cuts and draw cuts nicely.

    OT: ZDP-189 seems to prefer a draw cut. Still early to tell.
    Now Carlos this is one time I am going to have to slightly, respectfully, somewhat disagree with you. When it comes to a "grabbier edge" I have personally never encountered anything that grabs at a cutting surface like ZDP-189. I am not saying the other ones you mentioned don't have that quality to a certain degree but ZDP-189 has an edge that literally pulls itself into the surface to be cut almost like that of a "barber sharpened" straight razor.

    I have even heard one of the brothers here on the forum refer to the Burgundy Calypso Jr as a little folding razor. I have to agree totally. Sir I ask you to do a little more fiddling with the ZDP-189 and re-consider your take on it.

    I do concur with you though that VG-10 really does take a polished edge probably better than any blade steel I have encountered. But then again I even still like a couple of my older Spyderco knives that had GIN-1 in them . It is obviously out-shined by some of the newer blade steels but it really wasn't all that bad either. Thanks for hearing me out
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